Pronouns

[VelvetChairGirl]

Am I the only one who instantly judges those who state their pronouns as a massive narcissist?

especially if those pronouns are things you would never use when talking to someone, like they/them, who the hell refers to the person they are talking to as they/them, that doesn't work in English you cant use third person pronouns in the first person thats not how the language works.

Its trying to make you second guess everything and tread on eggshells, like a control thing to me, the idea alone that you are going to memorize everyone's individual pronouns for use whenever you see them individually is narcissistic, like you haven't got tonnes of other people you talk to.

Whitehorse - but if I’m taking about Bob in front of him and not using his name that’s just rude (who’s she? The cats mother? as my dm says), so I wouldn’t be calling him him or they when he’s there. And if he’s not there he a) won’t hear and b) I don’t have to go along with his beliefs or follow his rules.

I more often now just think pronoun declarations just show that that person believes in a religion/political theory/philosophy which I don’t and maybe that is fine, maybe not though as we are talking about a workplace but whatever, so long as I am not expected to participate then I try not to let it get to me… it does seem narcissistic to me to insist others must perceive you, or rather pretend to perceive you in a particular way. I definitely lose a bit of respect for anyone who makes a declaration of pronouns.

I absolutely can’t get my head around using the third person plural for a single known person. It only works for me to use it if the sex of the person in question is unknown, if I have never met the person for example.

No, 'they' in that sentence us describing 'each man' so it's singular

They 'they' is describing a bunch of 'each men', not just one.

I'm not sure we learn much from talking about pronouns in middle-English anyway, its pretty much a different language from the one we use now:
Hastely hiȝed eche . . . þei neyȝþed so neiȝh . . . þere william & his worþi lef were liand i-fere.
It's a long time since I studies it, and the only word I'm absolutely sure about it 'william' :)

I am always grateful when people put their pronouns - saves me googling the Kims and Sams - I recently chatted to a customer service person with a VERY traditionally female name (at least in German) who did NOT have their pronouns in their (follow up) email and had to first name them, since I couldn't be sure that baritone had been a man (I googled it - that German women's name is a man's name in Eastern Europe, like Simone and Andrea are men's names in Italy).

Pronouns are clarity and convenience.

the singular "they" is similarly useful. I got into the habit when asked not to disclose the identity of students or staff in confidential discussions. "They" comes very handy (although it did turn my stomach when I first started using it). It is really just habit.

Pronouns are clarity and convenience.

Not if someone uses the incorrect pronouns for their sex - then it causes confusion and inconvenience.

I have never actually encountered a pronoun declarer. If I did I think I, and anyone else in sunny Lancashire, would look at them as if they had two heads.

My mentality is that if I'm discussing someone in the third person who is not present, they should be grateful I'm discussing them at all! I will choose whatever language I want to discuss other people. That's how language works. It's organic and shouldn't be dictated.

It really depends on the situation. Having spoken to women in relatively junior work roles they are often out under pressure to add their pronouns and don't know how to say no. So on that situation I judge the people who are forcing that on them. If it's a senior colleague then yes I judge them as a virtue signaller/ narcissist

I am always grateful when people put their pronouns

Why do all the Genderists on here follow the same name format on their username (female name followed by three random letters). Are you all in a club?

I massively judge that they are not able to critically think, jump on whatever is the latest bandwagon and are virtue signalling bores

@aliasundercover

They as a singular pronoun is older than he/she, and it's absolutely fine to use. Keep up with the times!

I don't really have a problem with singular they, but that OED article isn't proof of anything.*
"Each man hurried . . . till they drew near" is clearly talking about multiple men, not a single man. The 'they' is describing men, not man. It's slightly odd usage, but that's it. If it said "The man hurried ... till they drew near" there might be a point.

*There may well be examples somewhere. I've seen Shakespeare use 'they' in a similar way to the quote above, and I've heard that Chaucer used singular 'they', though I've never been able to find an example. Either way, this isn't it.

The historic use of the singular they really is totally different, so I am not sure why it gets brought up.

No one said "Marian heard her mother return, so they hid behind the curtain." Wrong, and confusing.

Of course language could change in the future, but this seems an unlikely direction.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

I tend to think ‘unthinking virtue signaller’ rather than narcissist.

This! And I really, really judge when included in a LinkedIn profile.

Anyway, I tend usually to think people who do this are of the "be kind" variety unless I have reason to think something else. But it also signals to me it may be someone I need to watch out for.

@aliasundercover

Pronouns are clarity and convenience.

Not if someone uses the incorrect pronouns for their sex - then it causes confusion and inconvenience.

How is it inconvenience? "This is Robert (he/him)" - "Hi Robert, nice to meet you" - "Have you seen Robert, he was going to give me the company file"

Totally straightforward.

@donquixotedelamancha

I am always grateful when people put their pronouns

Why do all the Genderists on here follow the same name format on their username (female name followed by three random letters). Are you all in a club?

have you run out of arguments, so you go ad hominem?

Yes, these people are usually attention seeking virtue signallers. Last year my boss took everyone’s “preferred pronouns” with designs on displaying them in work emails. Ludicrous and very unprofessional proposal

No one said "Marian heard her mother return, so they hid behind the curtain." Wrong, and confusing.

well, yes, if you refer to Marian as both "her" and "they"

@Ladyday95

Yes, these people are usually attention seeking virtue signallers. Last year my boss took everyone’s “preferred pronouns” with designs on displaying them in work emails. Ludicrous and very unprofessional proposal

you'll find that going against company recommendation is likely to be judged "unprofessional"

@CatherinaJTV

As you are being intentionally disingenuous I will not bother discussing this with you.

you'll find that going against company recommendation is likely to be judged "unprofessional

Rather unprofessional to force people to declare their pronouns / drag gender politics into the work place.

@TimOTey

you'll find that going against company recommendation is likely to be judged "unprofessional

Rather unprofessional to force people to declare their pronouns / drag gender politics into the work place.

As per my previous post, there is no other context where making a political statement on your email signature would be considered professional.

The reason why this has seeped into the workplace is through lobbying and "training" by the likes of Stonewall.

It's not at all unprofessional to dispute any company mandate/policy as long as you do so factually and appropriately.

@CatherinaJTV

No one said "Marian heard her mother return, so they hid behind the curtain." Wrong, and confusing.

well, yes, if you refer to Marian as both "her" and "they"

I don't think you've been keeping up with current etiquette. LobsterNapkin's example is extremely apt. Many people who specify he/they or she/they want both sets used.

For example, the singer Halsey has requested she/they pronouns and complained after a magazine did a feature on Halsey in which they only using she/her/hers.

extract

Halseyhas announced she will no longer do press after Allure magazine failed to use their correct pronouns inits August cover storyand promoted the interview by taking quotes out of context. [Bold mine. Notice how the writer switches from she, to their, in the same sentence.]

Ina series of tweetsearly Wednesday morning, the 26-year-old called out the magazine directly and demanded that they "do fucking better."

"First your writer made a focal point in my cover story my pronouns and you guys deliberately disrespected them by not using them in the article," Halsey wrote.

The musicianannounced in Marchthat they would be using she/they pronouns going forward,later explainingthat while they are happy for people to use either, "the inclusion of 'they,' in addition to 'she,' feels most authentic to me." [bold mine]

"If you know me at all you know what it means to me to express this outwardly," she wrote in an Instagram story at the time.

Despite the fact that Allure's cover story explicitly mentioned Halsey's use of she/they pronouns — and quoted them as saying pronoun preferences are "meant for you to help better understand yourself" — the magazine exclusively used she/her pronouns throughout the profile. It hassince been editedto include both she and they pronouns.

While preferences differ for each person, generallywhen people use multiple pronouns,it is best to use them interchangeably unless they specify otherwise. [bold mine]

Continues here www.buzzfeednews.com/article/eleanorbate/halsey-called-out-allure-no-more-press

Being of this generation, I am au fait with people who identify as non-binary and wish to overhear/see both sets.

What is tripping me up is people like an actor I came across yesterday, whose specified pronouns are they/him/hers. Not they/he/she. So I think they're specifying they want third person plural subject, third person singular masculine object, and third person singular feminine possessive.

And at this point, for the first time, I, with my alleged talent for languages*, am not simply unwilling to comply, I am unable to comply. I can learn entire new sets of neo-pronouns with ease. I can switch pronoun sets for people. I can alternate between third person plural and singular when I speak of one individual person.

But I really couldn't undo decades of knowing she/her/hers and he/him/his and break them apart to reassemble as him + hers for one individual person, when it is still she/her/hers and he/him/his almost everywhere else.

I cannot code-switch to that extent.

*GCSE languages teacher. Hey, I'm just quoting here.

I think you're right in some cases. Many are people wanting to conform or do the right thing. I have to use pronouns in email or I'll out myself which means I'd lose my job. And obviously there are people who genuinely need people to know that they are trans.

However I have come across people who are very pushy with them. I had a meeting this week where we all introduced ourself and a man I work with a lot introduced 'themselves' with pronouns (no one else had) and as he/they. I feel he does this to deliberately trip people up and I think he'd be very quick to report if you slipped up. It seems all about making everyone think specifically about 'they' all the time to the detriment of having a proper discussion. As a result I just use 'they's' (???) name so sound like a lunatic: "Dave said Dave's report is good but Dave doesn't like what Sarah said about Dave"