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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pronouns

180 replies

VelvetChairGirl · 06/11/2021 20:06

Am I the only one who instantly judges those who state their pronouns as a massive narcissist?

especially if those pronouns are things you would never use when talking to someone, like they/them, who the hell refers to the person they are talking to as they/them, that doesn't work in English you cant use third person pronouns in the first person thats not how the language works.

Its trying to make you second guess everything and tread on eggshells, like a control thing to me, the idea alone that you are going to memorize everyone's individual pronouns for use whenever you see them individually is narcissistic, like you haven't got tonnes of other people you talk to.

OP posts:
bordermidgebite · 07/11/2021 11:08

Not hate , more wary

StevieNicksscarf · 07/11/2021 11:10

@Themilkmanschild - personally I wouldn't judge a child or a young person as I feel that they have been let down by those who are older and hopefully wiser. I don't blame any young child or teenager for getting swept up in all this (apart from those who become militant bullies aka Sussex students). They are susceptible to prevailing opinions far more than older people and have so little life experience. I actually feel sorry for them. So many of us middle aged women have been fighting against gender stereotypes for years and can see how regressive this whole ideology is.

FindTheTruth · 07/11/2021 11:21

Wearing a pronouns badge is a declaration that you have a gender identity and believe in the philosophical/religious/political belief of gender ideology - it’s not a neutral act.

I don’t have a gender identity. I use pronouns for trans colleagues and friends with no problems as they dress and present in accordance with their pronouns and there is no need to have a badge. A pronouns badge is NOT so that you know what pronouns to use, it is an INSTRUCTION from extreme lobby groups and it’s not kind. It’s a way to find out who disagrees.

A pronouns badge signals a controversial view of sex and gender where gender identity is more important than sex. While most people aren’t aware it,...

For those of us who disagree with the ideology it creates a sense of fear. Do the business and staff believe:

  • That Lesbians who state same-sex attraction only, are as bad as racists?
  • That lesbian female only spaces be shut down?
  • That Self -ID become law?
  • That gender identity replace sex in law?
  • That children should be taught gender identity and encouraged to choose a ‘gender identity’? a pathway to transition for some and medicalisation for some
  • That Women in prison should be locked up with rapists to validate the rapists?
  • Women sports should be mixed sex? therefore destroying women’s sports
  • That rapists and child sexual abusers be referred to as ‘she/her’? in the court and news if they want it
  • That males with a penis can use communal dressing rooms, showers, spas where women and children are naked or partially naked?

A pronoun badge is NOT neutral. And if anyone is compelled to wear a pronoun badge it could constitute “direct discrimination on grounds of philosophical belief,” and therefore would breach equality legislation

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/11/2021 11:29

I wouldn't judge an actual child for being caught up in a social fad. I do privately judge other adults, just like everyone in the world does.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/11/2021 11:31

A pronoun badge is NOT neutral

This. It really is not, it's a display of faith.

TeamRex · 07/11/2021 11:38

I wouldn't judge an actual child for being caught up in a social fad.

I would judge their parent if their parent is telling them that it's reasonable to tell adults what language they can use. Pronouns are simply a stand-in word for a person based on their perceived sex.

So if your child who prefers to be called they is called she because a person recognises them as female it's not an insult.

Scraggythang · 07/11/2021 11:45

People pleasing, virtue signalling cretin is usually what springs to mind.

Most of my female friends have their pronouns in there social media bios. Interestingly none of the heterosexual males do.

Blueskip · 07/11/2021 12:00

It is religious or belief discrimination for organisations to stipulate the wearing of pronouns and I suspect it might also be indirect discrimination to encourage it. I look forward to the first employment tribunal case on this.
Unfortunately Acas, as we have seen with their ridiculous erasing of the word women in relation to menopause, are fully TWAW so doubt we will see any guidance from them.

Motorina · 07/11/2021 12:05

[quote MidsomerMurmurs]**@Motorina* “Putting any reference to someone's biological sex in their clinical notes is also 'discriminatory abuse', inspite of some of the conditions we treat being more or less common in men and women”*

That sounds absolutely extraordinary. Do you work in a healthcare/clinical setting? In the UK? I’m obviously not asking you to reveal any specifically identifying information, but if it’s possible to quote any of the official instructions you’ve been given re not recording anything about a patient’s sex in their clinical notes, that would be really interesting to read.[/quote]
UK NHS.

Nothing in writing - I don't think it's official policy. But we were told that as part of broader training into abuse and discrimination.

Noone challenged it but, in fairness, neither did I, inspite of internally going WTF.

lazylinguist · 07/11/2021 12:06

Really excellent post, @FindTheTruth!

BigHuff · 07/11/2021 12:15

@Themilkmanschild

I have a child who uses they/them. I am worried about how much people like all of you will hate and judge my child for that. Is it really that awful?
I imagine most people won't judge a ten year old - we were all ten once, and fourteen, and twenty. We all know kids are easily led and thick. Most of them get some life experience and leave childish things behind.

I 100% judge adults who participate in this nonsense. It's embarrassing, and I can only assume their development arrested prematurely.

lazylinguist · 07/11/2021 12:17

I have a child who uses they/them. I am worried about how much people like all of you will hate and judge my child for that. Is it really that awful?

I really don't think the judging applies to children. If anything, people will judge those who have influenced children into thinking they need to change their identity to fit in with this ideology.

Motorina · 07/11/2021 12:19

the existance of trans or non binary colleagues is not a political point. They just are and cannot extract themselves out of their skins while at work.

This is absolutely true. And trans people - like everyone, protected group or not - should be able to go to work without discrimination or fear of abuse or harrassment.

But these are political views:

  1. TWAW are women and should have full access to female-only spaces.
  2. Sex based rights are important and maintaining single sex spaces matters. We need a third space for the trans community.
  3. Medical transition should be available on request to children.
  4. Self ID should be the law.
  5. Gender-confirming surgeries should be funded on the NHS.
  6. The police should be recording crimes by sex, and not gender, of the perpetrator.
  7. The police should be recording crimes by preferred gender of the perpetrator.
  8. Rape by deception should (or should not) apply if someone hides their sex from their partner until their clothes are off.
  9. It's okay to protest against academics who espouse minority views.
10. Academic freedom is more important than the right not to be offended.

No matter where you stand on those, they are political positions. People can and should be entitled to hold them. I agree with some, I disagree with others.

My views on those political issues should not be part of how I communicate as a clinician, particularly with patients. Stating my pronouns implies a particular approach to those political issues, which is no more appropriate for me to share with my work hat on than my views on Brexit.

It is possible to respect and support trans people without agreeing with their fundamental beliefs. In just the same way I respect my friends who have different views on religion, environmental issues, or the relative importance of chocolate and cheese.

CharlieParley · 07/11/2021 12:20

They as a singular pronoun is older than he/she, and it's absolutely fine to use. Keep up with the times!

Not when referring to a known person. Historical records of the use of singular they show unequivocally that usage was reserved exclusively for unknown persons.

Singular they when referring to known people is ungrammatical, hinders communication and comprehension and is indeed new.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 07/11/2021 12:25

Find the Truth and Motorina - thoughtful posts, thank you.

Likewise, I agree with CharlieParley about the use of singular they.

I'm a regular supporters' corner over here today. :)

Sittinginthesand · 07/11/2021 12:37

Themilkmanschild - I feel great sympathy for children like yours who feel uncomfortable with or can’t accept their sexed bodies. My judgement is reserved for our society that sexualise children and doesn’t tolerate people who don’t conform to sex stereotypes. I think children like yours should be getting much more support and much better mental health care. IME there are always other mental health / SEN issues alongside gender dysphoria. They aren’t old enough to understand that they will always be either male or female, but that that doesn’t need to be what defines their characters and how they present themselves.

Themilkmanschild · 07/11/2021 13:37

Okay so I should ignore their preference for them/they or I'm one of the adults who is 'participating' and will be judged.

Themilkmanschild · 07/11/2021 13:39

Yes she is autistic, doesn't mean she doesn't feel how she feels and that I should tell her she's talking nonsense. It would only serve to break down trust between us

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 07/11/2021 13:40

I think they’re narcissists/ misogynists/ conformists who are desperate to be validated or completely daft and unable to have independent, critical thought.

MurielSpriggs · 07/11/2021 13:43

I think you're mostly bonkers, there is not some massive conspiracy, they are (rightly or wrongly) in the "be-kind" camp.

Sittinginthesand · 07/11/2021 14:20

Themilkmaid - I said I judge society, not you. I would have though that long term most people would hope to be be able to accept their sexed bodies and live at peace with them. That seems a happier ultimate goal than fighting against biology and needing everyone else to participate in your fight. Obviously if they are deeply distressed you, as the parent, need to react and call them whatever alleviates their current stresses. But personally, I would be hoping it wasn’t a permanent thing and I would be telling her or him that we can’t change our biology but that we can wear what we want and have whatever interests etc we want - that gender stereotypes can be broken.

Themilkmanschild · 07/11/2021 14:25

They're not distressed or unhappy, they are quite the opposite actually. I feel sad that people will make try to make them feel shit for that though.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/11/2021 14:40

@Themilkmanschild

They're not distressed or unhappy, they are quite the opposite actually. I feel sad that people will make try to make them feel shit for that though.
I recommend that you read this.

4w.pub/autism-puberty-gender-dysphoria-view-from-an-autistic-desisted-woman/

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/11/2021 15:20

I'd also like readers to think about this twitter thread from a young woman who was a transman and who has now detransitioned. It's not a perspective we often hear.

thread

i’ve been ranting and raving against porn a lot more lately because every day it’s becoming more clear to me how much the normalization of extreme and grotesque online porn has played a role in the gender phenomenon in teenage boys and girls

long mfer incoming

i can only personally speak from the female perspective but one can’t help but notice that there’s also a sharp increase in teenage boys thinking they are girls, and that many of them have highly erotic reasoning for this identity,

a noticeable number of these MTF’s perceptions of what a “girl” is and what makes them a “girl” is often based in very outlandish fetishes and erotic ideas that have become much more prevalent with the mainstreaming of extreme pornography

in the recent “Survey of 100 Detransitioners” from Lisa Littman published in Archives of Sexual Behavior, there are 12 total heterosexual male participants. further along in the study, it shows that 12 males reported erotic motivations for their change in gender identity.

🤔 t.co/Ar6mxj1pKO

young people now are exposed to pornography often times before their puberty even begins. their first introductions to sexual sensation, fantasy, dynamics between men and women in mature contexts, and more developmental milestones are within the confines of extreme online porn

as many people who use porn report, there is kind of a “tolerance” that builds where people will seek out more and more stimulating or extreme porn than they started out with. this is likely compounded for young people who began consuming it in early developmental stages

it really is not far fetched to me that access to on demand extreme porn during crucial identity and sexuality formation stages could warp this sexuality and identity formation in adolescent boys. it would be far fetched to think it wouldn’t.

as for girls there’s another angle. in girls you will notice a similar phenomenon but reversed. many girls have the same extreme, hyper sexualized characature of what a “girl” or a “woman” is, and it serves as their reasoning for why they ARENT a “girl”

porn influences this both directly and indirectly. indirectly, the normalization and near universal regular consumption of on demand, online porn has desensitized the population at large to sexual content, resulting in hyper sexuality everywhere you look

on social media, it’s normal for women to farm attention and money by either presenting a highly sexualized image of themselves or actually selling pornography. everything from fashion to advertisements to selfies can be what previous generations would consider straight up porn.

in adolescent (minor) internet subcultures, it’s normal to talk about the porn you watch, what kinks you have, with people as young as 12 saying they have a daddy or a knife kink or that they’re “bottoms” or “tops”

in a lot of porn and in most of these porn inspired conversations, “submission” (and in many cases, what amounts to sexual torture in porn scenes) is a concept interchangeable with “woman”

this is completely normalized, and in so many cases actually seen as “EMPOWERING” for women, to the point where even if a young person felt uncomfortable with it all, they’re pressured and gaslit to not only repress those feelings but to participate in porn culture nonetheless

even for girls (and boys, probably) who DONT watch porn, who don’t participate in the porn culture (or if they do, just to fit in) the stuff is so pervasive that they will have seen (and felt horrified and violated by) pornographic imagery,

and been steeped in the hyper sexualized porn culture by their peers and social media.

the absolute PERCEPTION WARP this can cause in a young persons conception of sex, intimacy, men and women and their relationships, cannot be understated.

to girls who do not want to be sexual objects, who do not want to be sexually tortured, who do not want to become porn, but are gaslit into regurgitating that it’s all so cool and empowering and owning the patriarchy, the idea of being a “woman” under this conception is repulsive

many of us females grow up with and intuitive notion that when it comes to sex stuff, we’re inherently vulnerable. because we are. ideally a girl would explore sex in a safe way, with someone she trusts and who cares about her. but today, that developmental pathway is superseded

like boys, girls are often introduced to pornographic content before they even hit puberty. and all around them is a hyper sexualized porn fueled culture that is inescapable. the inherent anxieties of being a human female with vulnerability can be intolerable in these conditions

because it’s so pervasive, and because the world can now feel so unsympathetic to a young woman who is not hypersexual, some of these girls feel like there’s no way for them to be a girl. they are terrified of what the porn culture world is showing them a girl is supposed to be.

they don’t want to compete with porn for the attention of boys. they’re scared that all the boys are watching and loving this stuff that scares them so much. they feel inferior to other women who seem to be thriving in the porn culture, they feel something is wrong with them.

so they end up thinking that their short hair and white t shirt makes them not a girl

twitter.com/lacroicsz/status/1456999565299789836?t=Gx_y76QxVrYp2-0OqdWPZA&s=19

Pronouns
Thankyouverymuch1 · 07/11/2021 15:31

I’m being asked to put it in my email signature to “show leadership”.

I can see this going south quickly so interested to hear from anyone who has faced similar?

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