Pronouns

[VelvetChairGirl]

Am I the only one who instantly judges those who state their pronouns as a massive narcissist?

especially if those pronouns are things you would never use when talking to someone, like they/them, who the hell refers to the person they are talking to as they/them, that doesn't work in English you cant use third person pronouns in the first person thats not how the language works.

Its trying to make you second guess everything and tread on eggshells, like a control thing to me, the idea alone that you are going to memorize everyone's individual pronouns for use whenever you see them individually is narcissistic, like you haven't got tonnes of other people you talk to.

Catrina - names and pronouns aren’t the same though so not sure what relevance your point has. Names are chosen. Pronouns aren’t.

Loads of people have to put with the wrong name though - eg I know an Andrew who everyone calls Andy even though he doesn’t like it. Lots of people get abbreviated or given nicknames that they might not particularly like, often different names by different groups of people. Sometimes people are known as eg Short Dave or New Sarah.

@MintMe

My thoughts on this:

1. My son and husband get misgengered regularly. Especially my son who is four but has shoulder length blonde hair. We politely correct people, laugh and say "I know, it's the hair isn't it". No offence taken, ever.

1. I have never in my 45 years on this planet been unsure of what pronouns to use when talking about someone. Which leads me to believe this is a niche issue which is somehow being elevated to a level of importance disproportionate to the number of people it actually impacts

1. If the real driver behind visible pronouns is to make those struggling with their gender identity feel more comfortable, then why are we not adding our sexuality, neurological position, mental health diagnosis and disabilities to our email signatures?

Great post.

I am always grateful when people put their pronouns - saves me googling the Kims and Sams - I recently chatted to a customer service person with a VERY traditionally female name (at least in German) who did NOT have their pronouns in their (follow up) email and had to first name them, since I couldn't be sure that baritone had been a man (I googled it - that German women's name is a man's name in Eastern Europe, like Simone and Andrea are men's names in Italy).

Pronouns are clarity and convenience.

See, this exactly why I don't get the need for declared pronouns.

I've worked in international contexts for years and as you say, it's very common to not know someone's sex from their name. But I've never had a problem doing my job and have managed not to cause offence by assuming that a person could be either sex until I actually know.

It's perfectly normal for me to say "your colleague Xien" or "Taylor asked me to give you a call" and then to keep things neutral until someone who knows them confirms which pronouns are suitable. I have never known it to be an issue in a business context - as long as you don't assume, you just get in with your job as usual until you have more information.

I can see why someone might prefer to declare their pronouns in advance if they're upset by being misgendered, and that's obviously up to them.

But even with colleagues who are non-binary, if someone else refers to them as "she" in a meeting, it's quite easy to say "actually, Tan prefers 'they'" or to make a point of modelling Tan's preferred pronoun in your reply, if that's what they've requested.

I absolutely see how this has evolved from LGBT allies initiatives (similar to heterosexual staff putting rainbow flags on their desks to show it's a safe space to talk about your weekend plans with your same-sex partner without jeopardising your promotion prospects).

But there's being an ally and there's being sucked completely into someone else's belief system without your consent. Which is exactly what forced declaration of pronouns is.

The reason being incorrectly sexed in collaborative EU projects never caused any problems may be because ones sex is usually utterly irrelevant to the collaboration and research.

I mean really , why should I care at all what sex or gender the person I am working with has? What difference does that make to my work? To how should treat them or expect to be treated ?

@Motorina “Putting any reference to someone's biological sex in their clinical notes is also 'discriminatory abuse', inspite of some of the conditions we treat being more or less common in men and women”

That sounds absolutely extraordinary. Do you work in a healthcare/clinical setting? In the UK? I’m obviously not asking you to reveal any specifically identifying information, but if it’s possible to quote any of the official instructions you’ve been given re not recording anything about a patient’s sex in their clinical notes, that would be really interesting to read.

I have seen it creeping in in emails from NHS staff, I just roll my eyes, especially as it is of absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the content of the email.

So far, so 'good' with the local university though.

@lazylinguist

especially if those pronouns are things you would never use when talking to someone

Well obviously none of the pronouns people state on their email signatures etc are what you'd use when talking to them. Nobody puts 'you' as their stated pronoun- there would be no point, because literally everyone is 'you' when you're addressing them.

I agree with pp - they won't all be 'massive narcissists' - some are well-meaning and trying to be supportive and kind. I'm absolutely against compulsory pronoun-adding, and yes I roll my eyes a bit when I see it.

Well they are adding to the problem, giving into bullies doesnt stop the bullying and doesnt take away your discomfort and anxiety no matter what the bullying is.

its all bollocks anyway and can be avoided very simply by adopting Japanese style of address, I used to work for a Japanese companies UK office, you are your surname followed by first name on emails, if you are referred to in email or spoken to you are called your surname, if two or more people share the same surname they are referred to as surname plus first initial of name.

the Japanese really don't go in for pronouns, if I am talking to you, you know it because I am talking to you, if I am talking about someone else I name them. the words I, me, you etc are seldom used in conversation because they are assumed as you are speaking to that person. and as I said if its correspondence like email or in a group you use names.

What Japanese has instead is honourific titles tacked on, sama, kun etc.

the more all this goes on the more I think we should be like the Japanese.

In fact I'd go further

Until we get rid of sexism then having collaborative partners unaware of my sex is actually quite important to me

I prefer to build the relationship before speaking or meeting the people , so we get a working relationship that isn't tarred by their misconceptions ( not all people obs , but some )

@Sittinginthesand

Catrina - names and pronouns aren’t the same though so not sure what relevance your point has. Names are chosen. Pronouns aren’t.

Loads of people have to put with the wrong name though - eg I know an Andrew who everyone calls Andy even though he doesn’t like it. Lots of people get abbreviated or given nicknames that they might not particularly like, often different names by different groups of people. Sometimes people are known as eg Short Dave or New Sarah.

Names are chosen by the parents, or you can choose your last name when you get married. Every other name change by deed poll is not so straightforward.

And yes, lots of people need to put up with a wrong name. And that is not ok and if a person expresses that they don't want to be called that name, we should stop. I have certainly stopped it when a colleague made up anglicised nick names for new non-British colleagues.

But even with colleagues who are non-binary,...

there's being sucked completely into someone else's belief system without your consent.

A person cannot be non-binary.
The whole idea of respecting a non-binary person's pronouns involves being forced to speak according to another's belief system.

Equally, a man cannot become a woman and I will not be compelled to speak as though they are one.

I give my opinion, which is often a counterpoint to the prevailing voices on here. That should be ok?

Thank you for replying. Of course it's great to have a range of views, it would just be nice if that dialogue could sometimes be more constructive. For example:

Do you understand why many women don't want to have to highlight their sex in emails as it can increase the sexism they experience?

Do you really think putting pronouns in emails substantially helps anyone, if so why (beyond the theoretical idea of speaking 'correctly' about someone when they aren't there)?

@BigHuff

I went for dinner at a pizza place last week and the wait staff all wore pronoun badges (presumably mandated). One young woman had a "he/him" badge. (Incidentally, there was not a name badge in sight.)

The situation was totally bizarre. Who imagines that customers are going to be talking about their waiter?? To the extent that they need to know the ~gender identity of their waiter?? And that it matters how they refer to the waiter in private conversation??

And yes, I do think pronoun people are narcissists who don't have any real problems, or struggles to overcome - they could direct their energies externally and help others/their communities, but instead prefer to gaze eternally inwards and suck up the energy of others. Obviously anecdotal/biased evidence (because I seem to hang out in the worst groups) but 90% of the time it is middle class men and women asking to be referred to as "they". f* off.

Frankly I would have walked out and never went there again.

@BreadInCaptivity

Broadly speaking yes.

Quite simply, the failure to see that their demand for "courtesy" for themselves is extremely discourteous to me is a massive red flag of egocentrism.

Identify ideology is a belief and pronoun politics is simply an extension of that.

People who subscribe to this to are free to believe what they wish. In exactly the same way people have faith in God as represented by many religions.

However, just as I am (as an atheist) very happy to spend time with my lovely devout Catholic PIL, I will not go to church with them or pray before dinner, just as I would not buy into or practice any aspect of identity ideology.

Having a belief is fine, but you don't get to impose it on others under the guise of expecting people to be polite to you, whilst simultaneously being rude to them by disrespecting their adherence to facts and science.

This is well put and encapsulates my feelings perfectly.

(I do go church with Catholic family when they particularly desire it but obviously I do not take part in any responses that conflict with my beliefs.)

Do you understand why many women don't want to have to highlight their sex in emails as it can increase the sexism they experience?

of course I do and I think putting pronouns under emails or on name badges or on linkedin or whereever should be voluntary.

Do you really think putting pronouns in emails substantially helps anyone, if so why (beyond the theoretical idea of speaking 'correctly' about someone when they aren't there)?

it helps when the first name is ambiguous and you may not be on a first name basis with someone, it can be really helpful. My admin has "Mrs" in front of her name.

It also normalises the notion that pronouns are always immediately obvious and that is indeed a statement of support to colleagues or people we interact with who are not using traditional pronouns or the pronouns that people might think they should use.

Finally for me, it is a demonstration of yes, I can be in THIS position AND be a woman I have certainly been misgendered, despite my clearly female first name.

@CatherinaJTV

Do you understand why many women don't want to have to highlight their sex in emails as it can increase the sexism they experience?

of course I do and I think putting pronouns under emails or on name badges or on linkedin or whereever should be voluntary.

Do you really think putting pronouns in emails substantially helps anyone, if so why (beyond the theoretical idea of speaking 'correctly' about someone when they aren't there)?

it helps when the first name is ambiguous and you may not be on a first name basis with someone, it can be really helpful. My admin has "Mrs" in front of her name.

It also normalises the notion that pronouns are always immediately obvious and that is indeed a statement of support to colleagues or people we interact with who are not using traditional pronouns or the pronouns that people might think they should use.

Finally for me, it is a demonstration of yes, I can be in THIS position AND be a woman I have certainly been misgendered, despite my clearly female first name.

Would you support other political positions being displayed in email signatures?

Why does it help?

Beyond referring to them using thier preferred terms when they are not present, What do you do or think differently as a result of that knowledge?

that knowledge has only ever been used in a bad way about me. But equally I think it would be bad if that knowledge made people treat me better than others

What changes ?

It also normalises the notion that pronouns are always immediately obvious and that is indeed a statement of support to colleagues or people we interact with who are not using traditional pronouns

I think that's my big problem with it. I'm a teacher and I don't like (for example) being asked to wear rainbow badges. I would happily do so in my own life but I really feel strongly that the public sector should be completely politically neutral.

Quite frankly I think it's all a load of bollocks and indicates that you are either too intimidated to argue if you have been asked to declare your pronouns by work, or that you have very limited critical thinking when it comes to the whole ideology. It demonstrates perfectly how fascist ideologies were able to capture whole nations of perfectly "normal" people in days gone by.

Thank God I am retired and don't have to deal with this. I consider myself to have good manners so would make an effort not to be deliberately hurtful or rude to someone but I know exactly who is a man and who is a woman and will be inwardly eye rolling at the whole ridiculous "performance" that is now required to demonstrate tolerance. Oh the irony

@donquixotedelamancha

It also normalises the notion that pronouns are always immediately obvious and that is indeed a statement of support to colleagues or people we interact with who are not using traditional pronouns

I think that's my big problem with it. I'm a teacher and I don't like (for example) being asked to wear rainbow badges. I would happily do so in my own life but I really feel strongly that the public sector should be completely politically neutral.

the existance of trans or non binary colleagues is not a political point. They just are and cannot extract themselves out of their skins while at work.

It also normalises the notion that pronouns are always immediately obvious and that is indeed a statement of support to colleagues or people we interact with who are not using traditional pronouns or the pronouns that people might think they should use.

I think you meant it normalises the idea that pronouns aren't always obvious.

I object to being coerced into supporting the political idea that it's rational to choose pronouns unrelated to easily observed sex and then force people to use these chosen pronouns.

Until a few years ago pronouns were based on easily observed facts.

I tend to think ‘unthinking virtue signaller’ rather than narcissist.

Depends what the pronouns are. If they/them or "neopronouns" then I agree with the OP. In other cases with she/her or he/him I generally don't have enough knowledge to judge on pronoun displaying alone.

the existance of trans or non binary colleagues is not a political point. They just are and cannot extract themselves out of their skins while at work.

See, that's the disingenuous stuff that I noted was so similar to the other Genderists. I'm obviously not suggesting that people don't exist or that they should be skinned.

I'm saying that the idea we can dictate the pronouns others use is a political campaign which started a few years ago.

They exist

And if they realised that pronouns are a sex not gender indicator then they should have no worries

I have a child who uses they/them. I am worried about how much people like all of you will hate and judge my child for that. Is it really that awful?

I will judge anyone who tries to enforce gender as someone who is likely to treat me badly because I am female

I will judge anyone who buys into the gender narrative as someone who is either stupid or sexist

I find judgment based on people's actions a useful way to avoid self harm