Pronouns

[VelvetChairGirl]

Am I the only one who instantly judges those who state their pronouns as a massive narcissist?

especially if those pronouns are things you would never use when talking to someone, like they/them, who the hell refers to the person they are talking to as they/them, that doesn't work in English you cant use third person pronouns in the first person thats not how the language works.

Its trying to make you second guess everything and tread on eggshells, like a control thing to me, the idea alone that you are going to memorize everyone's individual pronouns for use whenever you see them individually is narcissistic, like you haven't got tonnes of other people you talk to.

If your child is expressing a trans identity, have you really considered how you might have contributed ?

Because I have seen very rigid sex based expectations in such parents. Throwaway sexist & unsupportive comments.

What might seem simple expressions can indicate to your child that you don't understand them, that they are in some way strange .

One that stayed with me, mother about child in hearing range. "She's good at math" tinkly laugh " don't know where that comes from " . The child was made to feel odd. Wrong

If that is coupled with the sane from school you can see where that ended

I’m being asked to put it in my email signature to “show leadership”.

Have you tried pointing out that this contravenes the recommendations set out in the Yogyakarta principles which were established to protect people's (including trans people's) right to privacy regarding their identity and sexual orientation?

Perfect!

If your child is expressing a trans identity, have you really considered how you might have contributed?

Because I have seen very rigid sex based expectations in such parents. Throwaway sexist & unsupportive comments

Whatever you might anecdotally have seen, it's a bit off to suggest this to someone you don't know. If we're talking anecdotally, my dd has a gender non-conforming friend whose two siblings identity as trans. Her parents are very much the opposite of what you describe - very affirming of their dc's non-conformity and supportive of however they wish to identity and present themselves.

@lazylinguist

I’m being asked to put it in my email signature to “show leadership”.

Have you tried pointing out that this contravenes the recommendations set out in the Yogyakarta principles which were established to protect people's (including trans people's) right to privacy regarding their identity and sexual orientation?

Sex Matters has advice.

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/

I say what I see

And I am very wary of anyone who thinks they are supportive of their child if that support includes lying to them or supporting actions that lead to physical harm

Being supportive in that way is agreeing with them that your sex fundamentally affects more than your physical biology , which rather supports my point that parents are often partially responsible

Because children trust snd believe you more than anyone else , and you just said yes you are a boy or whatever they are not

@Motorina

And at this point, for the first time, I, with my alleged talent for languages, am not simply unwilling to comply, I am unable to comply.

Thank you so much for saying this! I'm autistic and faceblind. In a meeting setting I am already juggling remembering names, learning a verbal tag for each name, trying to figure out what other peoples faces are doing, trying to make sure my face is doign the things it should, oooo that lightbulb's buzzing... My 'not able to comply' clicks in much earlier. So, in the 'Robert' example...

How is it inconvenience? "This is Robert (he/him)" - "Hi Robert, nice to meet you" - "Have you seen Robert, he was going to give me the company file"

There are two ways this can go.

If Robert is clearly a bloke this is redundant information. I knew Robert was he/him. You have wasted your breathe.

If Robert is visibly female my brain is now trying to juggle pronouns on top of all the other stuff. Something else will have to go. It will probably be listening to content. I may (maybe!) get Robert's pronouns right but following what he says, too? Brain overload.

For people with learning difficulties, using English as a second language, non-neurotypical or with hearing problems this is am real additional mental load. Is it reasonable to demand that, particularly when it may not be 'will not' but 'cannot'.

I completely agree. My child has a bit of difficulty with pronouns to start with and tends to use he/him for everyone (including me!) I don't melt to overhear myself referred to as him, but I worry what would happen if there were a staff member at school who identified as non-binary and insisted on being referred to with they/them/theirs at school.

I haven't dared mention any of this for a while, since the absolute shitstorm of personal attacks that came out of nowhere, last time I mentioned my personal experience of autism and people who couldn't deal with pronouns.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4204312-I-had-the-most-awful-row-with-my-teenagers-yesterday?msgid=106125632#106125632

As that interaction proved, this movement isn't just unthinkingly discriminatory against people with disabilities, it contains people who are wilfully and deliberately disablist.

@VelvetChairGirl

Am I the only one who instantly judges those who state their pronouns as a massive narcissist?

especially if those pronouns are things you would never use when talking to someone, like they/them, who the hell refers to the person they are talking to as they/them, that doesn't work in English you cant use third person pronouns in the first person thats not how the language works.

Its trying to make you second guess everything and tread on eggshells, like a control thing to me, the idea alone that you are going to memorize everyone's individual pronouns for use whenever you see them individually is narcissistic, like you haven't got tonnes of other people you talk to.

You literally used “them” to describe a singular person in your post.

I learn people’s names. Some people have foreign names I’m not quite familiar with. I do this because it’s basic human decency to do so.

Something you’re clearly unwilling to do. Shame on you

A hypothetical unknown person of unknown sex, Connie.

It's one thing to use they/them/theirs about someone you don't know, and can't hear or see. It's quite another thing to keep using they/them/theirs about a known individual. Outside specific requests due to gender identity, this is the kind of thing you only do when you are deliberately trying to obscure the subject's sex, perhaps for the sake of testing responses, or because you don't want your spouse to know the sex of the work colleague you're spending time with after work...

For some people, a request to use they/them about Darren, a specified, known individual is like being told not to visualise Darren's face when Darren is the subject of conversation and being asked to keep one's mental picture of Darren's face an indistinct blur.

@donquixotedelamancha

I am always grateful when people put their pronouns

Why do all the Genderists on here follow the same name format on their username (female name followed by three random letters). Are you all in a club?

I assumed it was more a case of a singular they, as it were.

CatherinaJTV

You seemed to agree that it was wrong and confusing to refer to one person by both her and they in the same sentence.

So what do you think about the singer, Halsey, who has requested she/they pronouns and complained after a magazine did a feature on Halsey in which they only used she/her/hers?

extract

Halsey has announced she will no longer do press after Allure magazine failed to use their correct pronouns in its August cover story and promoted the interview by taking quotes out of context. [Bold mine. Notice how the writer switches from she, to their, in the same sentence.]

In a series of tweets early Wednesday morning, the 26-year-old called out the magazine directly and demanded that they "do fucking better."

"First your writer made a focal point in my cover story my pronouns and you guys deliberately disrespected them by not using them in the article," Halsey wrote.

The musician announced in March that they would be using she/they pronouns going forward, later explaining that while they are happy for people to use either, "the inclusion of 'they,' in addition to 'she,' feels most authentic to me." [bold mine]

"If you know me at all you know what it means to me to express this outwardly," she wrote in an Instagram story at the time.

Despite the fact that Allure's cover story explicitly mentioned Halsey's use of she/they pronouns — and quoted them as saying pronoun preferences are "meant for you to help better understand yourself" — the magazine exclusively used she/her pronouns throughout the profile. It has since been edited to include both she and they pronouns.

While preferences differ for each person,generally when people use multiple pronouns, it is best to use them interchangeably unless they specify otherwise. [bold mine]

Continues herewww.buzzfeednews.com/article/eleanorbate/halsey-called-out-allure-no-more-press

Do you think this is a reasonable request now you've found out it's slowly being normalised? What do you think of how the Buzzfeed writer alternates she/her and they/them? Are you willing to follow a similar style guide once it reaches your sector?

If your child is expressing a trans identity, have you really considered how you might have contributed ?

Wow and you wonder why people think you're all hateful?

It's not my fault, I'm probably as gender non conforming as she is actually, I work in IT and I don't wear make up. They've always had all the different toys and I've encouraged their interests in whatever those might be. I would suggest perhaps it's more to do with her autism than me being a shit parent.
You lot really can fuck off

I believe that the recent obsession with pronouns and other minutiae of identity is actually just people trying desperately to have some agency over their a. In the years up until now people believed that if you worked hard and were a good person you would be rewarded with wealth and a nice life but now we know just how powerless we are in the face of economic downturn. Even if you're really smart, hard working and even if you're willing to sacrifice a lot you aren't guaranteed anything anymore. Meanwhile the wealth gap grows and people are made to feel shit in comparison to the richest. They grasp at trivial things like the words use to describe them as the last thing they could have any control over. It's a lot like how anorexia isn't really about weight, it's about having extreme anxiety over one thing you can control.

*over their lives

@Themilkmanschild

If your child is expressing a trans identity, have you really considered how you might have contributed ?

Wow and you wonder why people think you're all hateful?

It's not my fault, I'm probably as gender non conforming as she is actually, I work in IT and I don't wear make up. They've always had all the different toys and I've encouraged their interests in whatever those might be. I would suggest perhaps it's more to do with her autism than me being a shit parent.
You lot really can fuck off

Coolio. Have you read that link I quoted to you?

I’m being asked to put it in my email signature to “show leadership”.

I can see this going south quickly so interested to hear from anyone who has faced similar?

Point out to your superiors that gender critical beliefs are protected by the Equality Act 2010 (under religion or belief) and so your employer is opening itself up to claims of discrimination/harassment if it takes an official position on gender identity which disadvantages gender critical employees or highlights their beliefs as different from 'the norm'.

It's reasonable to expect a GC employee to regard feeling under pressure to state their adherence to a belief system they don't subscribe to as creating a hostile environment (just as it would be if morning prayers were made mandatory in the workplace) and your employer could expose themselves to claims of constructive dismissal - there is much pending litigation around gender ideology and employer-employee relationships at the moment, so as a minimum, I'd be advising your employer to wait and see how it all pans out in the courts over the next year or so, if I were you.

The Kathleen Stock example illustrates an employer's inability to protect their employee from harassment and discrimination, and I doubt that's going to work out well for Sussex Uni in the end.

I don't think that's a hateful question. I think it's a useful one. Autism clearly can be a factor. But as an inquisitive parent I would want to reflect on what other factors may have contributed to this. Access to social media, friendship groups, school attitude, friends parenting, our own parenting. What messages are being given to children and by who? Some parents certainly do contribute to this in their approach and what information they provide their children. Others do not. And there are other factors at play. Why do you think it is hateful to consider and reflect on what we did, and what we could do differently?

@Themilkmanschild

If your child is expressing a trans identity, have you really considered how you might have contributed ?

Wow and you wonder why people think you're all hateful?

It's not my fault, I'm probably as gender non conforming as she is actually, I work in IT and I don't wear make up. They've always had all the different toys and I've encouraged their interests in whatever those might be. I would suggest perhaps it's more to do with her autism than me being a shit parent.
You lot really can fuck off

Fwiw I (and probably quite a lot of others) think that comment/implication is out of order. There's plenty of parents on this board with kids (some autistic) who've been influenced by peer groups/SM etc regardless and in spite of anything their parents have done.

I mean the comment Themilkmanschild was responding to was out of order, to be clear.

@Themilkmanschild

Yes she is autistic, doesn't mean she doesn't feel how she feels and that I should tell her she's talking nonsense. It would only serve to break down trust between us

Look, nobody will 'hate' someone for using counter intuitive pronouns, that's pure hyperbole.

It's true I may well avoid them and avoid interaction, purely because I just can't be arsed getting involved with adjusting my mental calibrations to such a degree. I just don't have the headspace or mental energy to pretend to believe in this ideology. It's easier to bodyswerve.

In much the same way as I avoid conversations with people who earnestly want to discuss certain sincerely held beliefs.

Coolio. Have you read that link I quoted to you?
I have yes. But she already has a diagnosis of autism and she has read about autistic people and gender dysphoria, she is very intelligent. She is also very happy with who she is.
Not the distressed person some of you are making out these teens to be.

I have no respect or sympathy at all fir a parent who "supports" their child in a harmful way.

Why do you think it is hateful to consider and reflect on what we did, and what we could do differently?

Because actually the comment implied that it was my parenting.

I have no respect or sympathy at all fir a parent who "supports" their child in a harmful way.

Well let's hope your perfect child doesn't have these issues then. Jesus. Would it be better to tel her she's talking shit and lose the relationship we have together?

@ErrolTheDragon

I mean the comment Themilkmanschild was responding to was out of order, to be clear.

Agree.