Kathleen Stock on BBC Woman's Hour today

[Justme56]

Just seen this on twitter.

“The people who were wearing masks and didn’t want to be ‘singled out’ weren’t making a principled stand - they just didn’t want to be subject to the rules of the university.”

I wonder if you'd feel differently if a group of bullying people in masks were at your workplace every day pushing for you to be fired, Aber77, however "highly articulate and sincere". I suspect you wouldn't be quite so understanding.

Can you imagine if any other group of people targeted and bullied an individual the way these "students" have done? This isn't peaceful protest backed by moral and intellectual arguments. This is bunch of nasty, misogynist thugs. If a child of mine behaved like that I would be mortified. What a waste of tax payers money.

To me, there’s such an obvious gulf of clear water between “legitimate public protest” and what’s happened to Kathleen Stock that I struggle to see how people can’t see it.

If they were protesting against, say, a controversial figure coming to speak on campus, then yes, IMO it would be more along the line of legitimate protest. It would be to prevent a specific action: I don’t think that person should be invited here. I’m no fan of deplatforming, as I’d always take the “Nick Griffen on Question Time” approach and let people with vile beliefs damn themselves with their own words, but other people feel differently, and that’s fine. The goal in that case would be “I want everyone to know I don’t want this speech to happen”. OK.

But for Dr Stock, the campaign was against her keeping her job. It happened daily, for a number of years and amounted to a campaign of bullying and harassment that nobody, no matter their views, should have to put up with. Her “crime” is also ambiguous- she just has political opinions that people disagree with. There is nothing inherently hateful in what she says, and she is a very moderate voice. Bullying someone out of their livelihood is not legitimate protest, no matter how you slice it. And people doing it are wrong, and I don’t really care how sincerely they hold her beliefs against her. Still wrong.

@Sophoclesthefox

To me, there’s such an obvious gulf of clear water between “legitimate public protest” and what’s happened to Kathleen Stock that I struggle to see how people can’t see it.

If they were protesting against, say, a controversial figure coming to speak on campus, then yes, IMO it would be more along the line of legitimate protest. It would be to prevent a specific action: I don’t think that person should be invited here. I’m no fan of deplatforming, as I’d always take the “Nick Griffen on Question Time” approach and let people with vile beliefs damn themselves with their own words, but other people feel differently, and that’s fine. The goal in that case would be “I want everyone to know I don’t want this speech to happen”. OK.

But for Dr Stock, the campaign was against her keeping her job. It happened daily, for a number of years and amounted to a campaign of bullying and harassment that nobody, no matter their views, should have to put up with. Her “crime” is also ambiguous- she just has political opinions that people disagree with. There is nothing inherently hateful in what she says, and she is a very moderate voice. Bullying someone out of their livelihood is not legitimate protest, no matter how you slice it. And people doing it are wrong, and I don’t really care how sincerely they hold her beliefs against her. Still wrong.

I agree and I do not know how the university can be blameless in this.

The students masked themselves because they know what they are doing is against the rules of the university and they might suffer sanctions if caught. They should. But I'd like the university to put more effort into finding out who they are, and taking action. They should send a clear message that this bullying behaviour to staff will not be tolerated by investigating and expelling students where appropriate. They are liable for enabling a hostile environment for Kathleen Stock, and for others with the same beliefs.

The university absolutely should be finding out who these people are. If I was an employer I would be wary of employing a graduate of this establishment.

Where does access to a workplace free from bullying fit in?

I wouldn’t have to deal with that at work

The students are protesting that Kathleen stock believes in certain circumstances biological sex must take precedence over gender identify. That’s it, that’s the ‘terrible awful we’re so scaarreed and unsaaafe’ thing she holds firm too that Biological reality matters.

If some posters think that indulging students in hounding & harassing her for 3 years to the point where the police couldn’t guarantee her safety is them behaving legitimately, words fail me

I simply don’t believe that the uni don’t know the identities of those behind it. Dr Stock said in the Woman’s Hour interview yesterday that this was in part instigated by staff. The uni knows who they are, and I’ll bet they can figure out which students would be likely to back those staff. A proper investigation could easily get to the bottom of it, were they minded to so do.

They’re not, as far as I’m aware, taking that option.

At what point does 'peaceful protest' become harassment?

Or, what is the difference between a witchhunt, a hounding, a campaign of public harassment and smearing, and a 'peaceful protest'?

@endofagain

The university absolutely should be finding out who these people are. If I was an employer I would be wary of employing a graduate of this establishment.

Yes, I agree.

I agree that the university must know who these students are, or, if they do not, it would not be terribly difficult to find out. This makes me think they have chosen not to act, I suspect out of concern that to do so would make the university look transphobic. The vice chancellor is leaving at the end of the year, I can sort of see why he might prefer not to take action (even though I do not necessarily agree with this decision).

ETA: Yes, it looks as if interim vice chancellor designate believes they have acted appropriately: freespeechunion.org/letter-to-professor-david-maguire-vice-chancellor-of-sussex-university-about-the-harassment-and-intimidation-of-kathleen-stock/ which must make Sussex a somewhat frightening place to work (go figure).

@endofagain

The university absolutely should be finding out who these people are. If I was an employer I would be wary of employing a graduate of this establishment.

Good point. Dd is a fair way of university but if she goes, I will take this into consideration.

I don’t think this will have much effect on undergraduate intake. It’s not as though students at other universities are noticeably less stupid on this issue.

However, it won’t just blow over. The message received by students is that they can dictate staffing policy, even when that puts the university in legal jeopardy.

Dr Stock said in the Woman’s Hour interview yesterday that this was in part instigated by staff
We keep talking as if this was purely a student protest. It wasn't - there were staff involved. I'm prepared to make some allowances for students but not for the grown ups.

Three aspects of this that are not said often enough.

1. KS believes what 99% of the country - indeed the world - believes, so why is she being victimised and scapegoated as though she is alone?

1. We all know that, if she were a man, this would not have happened. Many men in the public eye are speaking out on this issue and I've not heard of terrorists in balaclavas at their workplaces.

1. GC women in balaclavas wielding smoke bombs and banners with words of hate against one individual named trans person would have been arrested by Sussex Police in a nanosecond and charged with a Hate Crime, and several public order offences.

Covered in the Times today

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kathleen-stock-fled-university-hyperventilating-amid-transphobia-row-tlmf0hzzb?shareToken=08ae1f776a2d4f93841c315ebf88093c

I've not heard the interview itself but this, and the bbc report on it, both make it quite clear she holds (ex)colleagues primarily responsible.

The protests originated from Stock’s calls to protect female-only spaces at the university which she says were fuelled by other staff who mobilised students against her rather than debating her views directly.
She said there had been “three-and-a-half years of low-level bullying, harassment and reputation trashing” by colleagues that started when she began to write about gender identity policy.

I wonder if she is planning to sue the university and if this is why she hasn't named the colleagues that were riling up the student protesters? These colleagues must be feeling pretty uncomfortable right now, when it is clear that the majority of the public back and agree with Prof Stock.

I imagine she came to a settlement with the university which would normally rule out further legal action and also - I would think - naming any individuals involved. I hope it was a massive payout.

GC women in balaclavas wielding smoke bombs and banners with words of hate against one individual named trans person would have been arrested by Sussex Police in a nanosecond and charged with a Hate Crime, and several public order offences

Thank you for pointing this out Maskless
The systematic lack of protection for women from intimidation and harassment (including in the workplace) is all there in plain sight.

@Maskless

Three aspects of this that are not said often enough.

1. KS believes what 99% of the country - indeed the world - believes, so why is she being victimised and scapegoated as though she is alone?

1. We all know that, if she were a man, this would not have happened. Many men in the public eye are speaking out on this issue and I've not heard of terrorists in balaclavas at their workplaces.

1. GC women in balaclavas wielding smoke bombs and banners with words of hate against one individual named trans person would have been arrested by Sussex Police in a nanosecond and charged with a Hate Crime, and several public order offences.

Exactly

I’m incredulous

[quote ArabellaScott]Julie Bindel interviews Kathleen Stock for unHerd, here.

[/quote] Going to re-post this link, (thanks @ArabellaScott) - I`ve just listened and its an excellent interview and much more detailed than the interview on Womans Hour. It gives a lot more of the background about years of bullying and her suggestion here is that some students may be very much led by some lecturers who they take on as role models and who may totally embrace gender ideology.

Only just listened to this. So sorry for KS , but pleased that she was able to speak about the terrible harassment and bullying while bringing in all the issues we are worried about. The statement from Stonewall was appalling...they do not stand up for lesbians. And no , having views is not dangerous to these fragile misogynists . I really like the idea that an army of women should return with KS to pick up her belongings as someone here suggested. An apology should be issued by WH for ignoring the elephant for so long.