Anti-pronouns letter to companies

[Sunkisses]

This is an email a friend wrote to a law firm about how seeing pronouns in their staff emails makes her feel, as a woman. Apparently it may have worked as the male lawyer stopped putting pronouns in his signature. She wants other women to adapt it. She set up a gmail account in another name as she didn't want her email to result in negative treatment from the staff, but wanted the firm to know how statements of allegiance to gender ideology makes her feel.

Dear XX

I am a client of yours but I am sending this from an anonymous email account as I do not feel safe sending this from my real account, and fear it will have repurcussions on my treatment by your staff.

I wanted you to know that two of your staff who I deal with have she/her and he/him in their email signatures. I don't know if this is a standard practice and encouraged by XX, or if this is peculiar to these two staff.

I see the statement of pronouns in email signatures as a political statement on an extremely controversial and divisive issue. It makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable, alienated, and quite fearful that I may not receive fair treatment if I disagreed with your staff on this issue. I wanted XX to know how I feel about this, and how many people are likely to feel.

The two staff are clearly female and male, and there is absolutely no reason for them to add these pronouns to their email signature apart from to make a clear political statement on their position on a very divisive issue. I do not believe your staff should be inserting their political positions into their communications with clients, especially on uniquely divisive issues. You would not expect to see staff stating their position on Brexit in their email signatures, with "Leave" or "Remain" added under their contact details. Or people stating "Christ is Lord" or "Allahu Akbar". Or "Vaccinate now" or "Lift lockdown" added.

I profoundly disagree with gender identity ideology. I see it as regressive, sexist and homophobic. I do not regard it as progressive in the slightest. I regard much of gender identity activism as extremely authoritarian and a threat to freedom of thought, belief, and expression, and a threat to the rights of women and girls. I profoundly disagree with the attempts to redefine what a woman is, and what same-sex attraction is. From conversations I have, most people agree with me but many are too fearful of saying so as this issue is so controversial and trans activists are incredibly aggressive and target people in their workplaces.

When I see your staff acting as activists with political statements in their email signatures it does not make me feel comfortable at all, and makes me feel like they would not treat me fairly if they knew that I profoundly disagreed with their political views on the importance of women's rights. It makes me feel they oppose the rights of women and girls, and it makes me feel alienated and completely excluded.

I ask that XX reconsider whether it is appropriate for staff to have political statements such as pronouns in their email signatures, and whether staff should be using their workplace as a forum for their activism.

Yours, XX

[bordersmidgebites]

If there was no effect on other people , why would one add them?

Ergo there is an effect intended on people who read them

They are added to signal support for a specific ideology

An ideology many find harmful or hurtful

[WTFCanIDoAboutThis]

@bordersmidgebites

If there was no effect on other people , why would one add them?

Ergo there is an effect intended on people who read them

They are added to signal support for a specific ideology

An ideology many find harmful or hurtful

The effect on other people may be "this is who I am and I care who you are". Why would that threaten you as a woman? It's not saying 'I no longer think women's rights are important'.

[bettyboodecia]

Well I am gender critical, but don't oppose pronouns in email signatures, albeit I don't add one in my own. I believe it is right to allow a person to adopt the gender identity they prefer in most (but not all) situations. Adding pronouns should not be reserved only for people who "need" them. Having some senior staff adopt them is part of a creating a workplace culture that is inclusive of trans people.

[OperationDessertStorm]

If it was just about how you wanted to be addressed then it would be fine. But it’s not, it’s also about supporting the idea that gender identity is more important than sex. It’s about normalising males to have instant and unquestionable access to women’s prisons, womens sports, single sex employment, lesbian groups, women’s changing rooms, women’s dorms and single sex hospital wards.

I think it’s a good idea to tackle people if you feel able and I’d probably send few lines on how controversial it is with a link to the Nolan podcasts.

[WTFCanIDoAboutThis]

@bettyboodecia

Well I am gender critical, but don't oppose pronouns in email signatures, albeit I don't add one in my own. I believe it is right to allow a person to adopt the gender identity they prefer in most (but not all) situations. Adding pronouns should not be reserved only for people who "need" them. Having some senior staff adopt them is part of a creating a workplace culture that is inclusive of trans people.

Agreed. This is the point that I'm trying to make.

[bordersmidgebites]

The threat is that it means, in an environment where sex and general should be utterly irrelevant, people are making assertive statements about gender

As someone who has suffered from other peoples expectations of gender , that I do perceive as a threat " we will treat you differently ( and worse ) to men because you are femAle "

[WTFCanIDoAboutThis]

It’s about normalising males to have instant and unquestionable access to women’s prisons, womens sports, single sex employment, lesbian groups, women’s changing rooms, women’s dorms and single sex hospital wards.

I'm sorry but this is ludicrous and the 'all males are bad' narrative is equally damaging.

[bordersmidgebites]

You can't in this case be inclusive of everyone

[AssassinatedBeauty]

It's not "all males are bad" as a narrative. No one has said that, or would. We all know NAMALT. The point is that a significant minority are. For example a recent piece of research showed that 10% of men at university admitted to sexual aggression and criminality towards women. The important point is that you have no way of knowing whether any one man is in that significant minority or not. So we have safeguarding for women, considering the possible risk and the possible harm that could be caused.

[bordersmidgebites]

The principle is

Pronouns are important, that's why we publicise them , because gender is important, pronouns are needed in case people use sex indicators , sex is not important , gender is

Snd once you accept that , women's anything means those who express that gender

[KimikosNightmare]

What is the point of adding pronouns at the end of an email beyond performative "ooh look at me" virtue signalling?

Seriously- I don't care about the gender critical argument. I don't feel frightened or got at but what on earth is the point?

When I reply to your email I won't be using your pronouns. I'll start off by using your name and then "you" "your"

If I have to phone you it will be the same. If it is a chain email and I have to single you out from everyone else in the chain I'll use your name.

[WTFCanIDoAboutThis]

@bordersmidgebites

The principle is

Pronouns are important, that's why we publicise them , because gender is important, pronouns are needed in case people use sex indicators , sex is not important , gender is

Snd once you accept that , women's anything means those who express that gender

I think you're overthinking that. What's intended to help a very small minority of the population feel less marginalised is being hijacked. Seriously! Live and let live! If you don't agree then don't use pronouns!

[donquixotedelamancha]

When I reply to your email I won't be using your pronouns. I'll start off by using your name and then "you" "your"

Those are still pronouns. If my work ever brings in a 'pick your own pronouns' policy they are the first ones I'm replacing.

[KimikosNightmare]

The effect on other people may be "this is who I am and I care who you are". Why would that threaten you as a woman?

The effect for me is this says "this is who I am. I have an enormous ego and an overwhelming need to virtue signal what a good person I am"

The next effect on me is if I can avoid dealing with your business, then I will.

[KimikosNightmare]

@donquixotedelamancha

When I reply to your email I won't be using your pronouns. I'll start off by using your name and then "you" "your"

Those are still pronouns. If my work ever brings in a 'pick your own pronouns' policy they are the first ones I'm replacing.

What on earth are you on about? You will replace "you" and "your"?

[donquixotedelamancha]

@bettyboodecia

Well I am gender critical, but don't oppose pronouns in email signatures, albeit I don't add one in my own. I believe it is right to allow a person to adopt the gender identity they prefer in most (but not all) situations. Adding pronouns should not be reserved only for people who "need" them. Having some senior staff adopt them is part of a creating a workplace culture that is inclusive of trans people.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'I'm gender critical' but typically it means thinking gender identity is a set of harmful stereotypes and not a real thing.

I've never met any trans person who thinks announcing pronouns helps them.

[donquixotedelamancha]

What on earth are you on about? You will replace "you" and "your"?

Yes. The policies I've seen from employers don't specify which pronouns you can dictate, just that other employees much respect whatever pronouns you choose.

[bordersmidgebites]

You really don't get how harmful gender assumptions have been to me do you ? Why am I expected to ignore it, yet it's critical to the support of transpeople? Yet again I am less important, my feelings less relevant. Bottom of the heap.

[timeisnotaline]

[quote MidsomerMurmurs]**@timeisnotaline* I don’t think I understand the religious point*

The argument is that gender ideology is a faith (akin to religious faiths). It is fine for anyone to believe that they have an inner essence that “is” their gender. In the same way, it is fine for someone with a religious faith to believe that they have a soul, that is their inner essence.

But it’s not normal for people to state that in every interaction they have at work. And it’s not normal for people to assume that everyone has a soul, and that those who refuse to believe are heretics, or are trying to deny Christians’ existence.

It also would be weird to do this for the protected characteristics of EA2010. If I have no disability, should I put “I’m not disabled” at the bottom of every email? Would that help people who are disabled? Should I put “I’m white Caucasian!” in my signature? Would that help people from other ethnic groups?[/quote]
No but you might wear headgear which makes it pretty obvious. They are comparably obvious and both protected. I’m aware my employees still have to deliver their work around these adjustments and this can be done around leaving early on Friday so we would allow that (some questions re this particular employee around whether they were too generous in calculating how long they needed to get home, but that’s by the by). Just as I arrive late most days with childcare commitments, that often impacts clients more than something in my email signature. I think not having your phone number in your email signature these days is an announcement im too important to be bothered unless you have (often this is partly true) and far more inconvenient!

I just don’t think it’s ok to take a zero tolerance approach to trans which is what this feels like, and that does feel transphobic. I’d like to get to a point where some people announced their pronouns and others said that’s nice and nobody blinked OR suggested it be made mandatory, and hold a zero tolerance line on men in women’s prisons, the definition of sex vs gender, medicating children etc.

[bordersmidgebites]

Hum

If a ( minority ) catholic put "I'm catholic " in emails they were sending to Irish Protestants , would you see that as mostly harmless ? Or unnecessary and provocative ?

If someone wrote " I support the catholics" in an email to those irish Protestants , do you think it would be considered harmless ?

[bettyboodecia]

"I'm not sure what you mean by 'I'm gender critical' but typically it means thinking gender identity is a set of harmful stereotypes and not a real thing."

This is the nub of it. I don't believe that either biological sex or gender identity are myths. I believe society needs to find a way to accommodate both.

[KimikosNightmare]

I just don’t think it’s ok to take a zero tolerance approach to trans which is what this feels like, and that does feel transphobic. I’d like to get to a point where some people announced their pronouns and others said that’s nice and nobody blinked OR suggested it be made mandatory, and hold a zero tolerance line on men in women’s prisons, the definition of sex vs gender, medicating children etc

You still haven't explained why pronouns need to be in an email footer.

There is no need for me to insert he, she etc, etc, when replying to an email.

As for your, frankly ridiculous, suggestion that you'd be happy with pronouns being made mandatory that contradicts the Yogyakarta Principles. As others have said there are many trans people who would not support that.

[OperationDessertStorm]

@WTFCanIDoAboutThis

It’s about normalising males to have instant and unquestionable access to women’s prisons, womens sports, single sex employment, lesbian groups, women’s changing rooms, women’s dorms and single sex hospital wards.

I'm sorry but this is ludicrous and the 'all males are bad' narrative is equally damaging.

Any male can identify (great! You do you. It’s none of my business). At the same time we’re making it difficult and shameful for women to speak out about single sex provision. That’s a recipe for disaster.

The ‘Any adult could be a woman’ narrative is damaging.

[donquixotedelamancha]

I don't believe that either biological sex or gender identity are myths. I believe society needs to find a way to accommodate both.

In what sense do you think the Genderist view of GI is meaningful?

If you think that (for example) a child playing with 'boys' toys and liking 'boys' hobbies makes them a boy that's fine but I don't see how it's Gender Critical.

[KimikosNightmare]

No but you might wear headgear which makes it pretty obvious. They are comparably obvious and both protected

What on earth has wearing spectacles (I assume that's what you are referring to) got to do with email signatures?

Apart from the fact when I reply to an email from timeisnotaline the fact you might wear specs is as irrelevant as whether you prefer he/she/ whatever- neither need to be referred to i.n my reply.