Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anti-pronouns letter to companies

251 replies

Sunkisses · 31/10/2021 08:13

This is an email a friend wrote to a law firm about how seeing pronouns in their staff emails makes her feel, as a woman. Apparently it may have worked as the male lawyer stopped putting pronouns in his signature. She wants other women to adapt it. She set up a gmail account in another name as she didn't want her email to result in negative treatment from the staff, but wanted the firm to know how statements of allegiance to gender ideology makes her feel.

Dear XX

I am a client of yours but I am sending this from an anonymous email account as I do not feel safe sending this from my real account, and fear it will have repurcussions on my treatment by your staff.

I wanted you to know that two of your staff who I deal with have she/her and he/him in their email signatures. I don't know if this is a standard practice and encouraged by XX, or if this is peculiar to these two staff.

I see the statement of pronouns in email signatures as a political statement on an extremely controversial and divisive issue. It makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable, alienated, and quite fearful that I may not receive fair treatment if I disagreed with your staff on this issue. I wanted XX to know how I feel about this, and how many people are likely to feel.

The two staff are clearly female and male, and there is absolutely no reason for them to add these pronouns to their email signature apart from to make a clear political statement on their position on a very divisive issue. I do not believe your staff should be inserting their political positions into their communications with clients, especially on uniquely divisive issues. You would not expect to see staff stating their position on Brexit in their email signatures, with "Leave" or "Remain" added under their contact details. Or people stating "Christ is Lord" or "Allahu Akbar". Or "Vaccinate now" or "Lift lockdown" added.

I profoundly disagree with gender identity ideology. I see it as regressive, sexist and homophobic. I do not regard it as progressive in the slightest. I regard much of gender identity activism as extremely authoritarian and a threat to freedom of thought, belief, and expression, and a threat to the rights of women and girls. I profoundly disagree with the attempts to redefine what a woman is, and what same-sex attraction is. From conversations I have, most people agree with me but many are too fearful of saying so as this issue is so controversial and trans activists are incredibly aggressive and target people in their workplaces.

When I see your staff acting as activists with political statements in their email signatures it does not make me feel comfortable at all, and makes me feel like they would not treat me fairly if they knew that I profoundly disagreed with their political views on the importance of women's rights. It makes me feel they oppose the rights of women and girls, and it makes me feel alienated and completely excluded.

I ask that XX reconsider whether it is appropriate for staff to have political statements such as pronouns in their email signatures, and whether staff should be using their workplace as a forum for their activism.

Yours, XX

OP posts:
RavingAnnie · 31/10/2021 17:22

@TreXX

I'd say it's overstepping tbh especially the detail of how many staff do it, too personal. And it's likely to have people/companies doubling down.

Also it should be much, much shorter and concentrate on making the main points far more concisely.

The points should be:
Irrelevant personal information in the same vein as religion, politics and sexuality.

Disadvantage to female staff.

Potential alienation of customers.

Feelings should be kept out of it as they're largely irrelevant to companies and can be easily dismissed. I delete ranty emails daily in my job. I don't even bother to read them to see if I agree. Rant = delete.

That email isn't "ranty". Long doesn't equal ranty. I agree that feelings are not always appropriate in communications with businesses, but I think the email is great and feelings are really relevant in this context.

I also think generally that dismissing people because of their communication style is not really on and it's ableist. I have ADHD and really struggle to be concise. People with autism can also be quite wordy. It upsets me to think you wouldn't even read my communication because it was a bit too long for you and I'd used too many words.

CloudsandTeacups · 31/10/2021 17:25

@donquixotedelamancha

if I had staff who felt strongly about their pronouns my job as their manager would be to support them against clients....I couldn’t accept clients objecting to my staff sharing their own.

Where is the limit on that? Support for a particular political party? Campaigning against abortion?

Companies allowing staff to push political views is common in the US but in the UK the norm is that they don't.

But that's the issue surely. Pronouns don't actually announce a political position they are simply (linguistically speaking) how you wish to be addressed (unfortunately having become politicised)

As someone with a gender neutral name I know that it irks me when people who haven't met me assume my gender (usually incorrectly) in email chains (which are common in my line of work) by having my pronouns it avoids those awkward moments when I meet that staff member in person or having to correct them in emails. (I know others may not find this an issue but it is for me)

So should I be stopped fro having pronouns in my email signature for convenience because others believe it to be a political statement?

Gmom · 31/10/2021 17:43

Parts of the letter are excellent. I agree it would be more effective if it were more concise and slightly less emotional.

I agree using "she/her" after your name is making a political statement and not an apolitical way of disambiguating if you have a gender neutral name. I worked in the civil service and we weren't allowed to make any political statements and I even remember my boss complaining that people shouldn't be allowed to wear poppies because that was political. I wouldn't be surprised if they are allowed to do the pronoun thing in their emails and internal staff directory now though - our institutions have been captured by this ideology.

donquixotedelamancha · 31/10/2021 17:48

Pronouns don't actually announce a political position they are simply (linguistically speaking) how you wish to be addressed

Not at all. Pronouns are words or phrases which can stand in for a noun. The idea that individuals can dictate the third person personal pronouns others use about them is inherently linked to Genderism; putting pronouns on emails isn't a pre-existing thing. It's also not widespread in the UK.

So should I be stopped fro having pronouns in my email signature for convenience because others believe it to be a political statement?

In normal life if someone mistakes you for the opposite sex you just correct them. It's disingenuous to suggest it's not political so whether a company wants to have a policy on what is in employees email signature will depend on whether it might put customers off.

MidsomerMurmurs · 31/10/2021 17:50

Pronouns don't actually announce a political position they are simply (linguistically speaking) how you wish to be addressed (unfortunately having become politicised)

So…they do now signal a political position then?

(That’s political in its broad “lower case p” sense, not party politics).

I sympathise with individual people with names that are sometimes given to children of either sex (I’ve worked with a male and female “Chris”). But this is not about that ambiguity. It is an attempt to normalise this odd ritual (in meetings and in written communication) so that people who wish to be referred to as the other sex can feel less awkward about demanding that other people go along with their wishes.

And people who 1) don’t think that they have an inner “gender” and 2) don’t think that sex-based pronouns refer to this unverifiable concept, should not feel obliged to take part in the charade.

MsFogi · 31/10/2021 17:52

I think this is a great initiative - I will certainly consider doing this going forward if I get a professional communication with pronouns dictated in the auto signature and hopefully if lots of us do so companies may begin to see that Stonewall is not the only group to be kept happy.

MsFogi · 31/10/2021 17:53

Just one thought on improving the email - lots of big companies are all about "Stakeholders" now - it may be worth stating that women are stakeholders (both as customers and also as a societal stakeholder).

KimikosNightmare · 31/10/2021 18:59

But that's the issue surely. Pronouns don't actually announce a political position they are simply (linguistically speaking) how you wish to be addressed (unfortunately having become politicised)

As someone with a gender neutral name I know that it irks me when people who haven't met me assume my gender (usually incorrectly) in email chains (which are common in my line of work) by having my pronouns it avoids those awkward moments when I meet that staff member in person or having to correct them in emails. (I know others may not find this an issue but it is for me)

So should I be stopped fro having pronouns in my email signature for convenience because others believe it to be a political statement?

If I reply to an email from you I will say "Dear Clouds". I won't be using a pronoun.

KimikosNightmare · 31/10/2021 19:02

And if referring to you in an email chain involving several recipients would do the same- ie use your name as otherwise it's unclear who is being referred to if only a pronoun is used.

My work involves chains of emails too and that's how this is dealt with.

vesuvia · 31/10/2021 19:12

I like the original letter in the OP - a good template and I'm glad it has been shared. I also like some of the enhancements that have been suggested on this thread.

My response to criticism that this letter opposing transgender ideology is too much about feelings:

I think it is worth bearing in mind that fundamental beliefs of transgender ideology include "I feel like a woman" / "I feel like a man" / "I don't feel like a man or a woman". These feelings have been a very effective tool in transgender ideology's capture of many businesses, other organizations and many "be kind" people. Too many people have become fearful of criticising behaviour that is harmful to women and girls. The "be kind" type of person seems to respond more favourably to feelings (of gender identity), not logic (of biological sex).

So, I think a letter that includes logic/facts plus feelings is well worth trying.

Grumpyosaurus · 31/10/2021 19:15

Forwarded to DH. He is well able to look after himself should it come to it with his employer, but it doesn't hurt for him to know just how many women feel about the pronouns bollocks, and to be abel to include that.

WTFCanIDoAboutThis · 31/10/2021 19:32

Sorry if I've missed it but no one seems to acknowledge that some large companies (mine included) see this as an attraction tool. The 'war for talent' is real and being seen to be inclusive is important. That's my first point. My second point is that depending on who this is letter is sent to (undoubtedly not the decision maker) my feelings are that it comes across as whiny and will be dismissed. This makes me think of something someone said to me many years ago; the more people you ask the more opinions you'll get. Sometimes you just need to make a decision.

My personal position on pronouns (not a popular one on this board I'm sure); it's a bit 'trendy' but it doesn't actually affect me positively or negatively to have it on my signature. If it makes someone else feel that my organisation is inclusive then why is it a bad thing?

bordersmidgebites · 31/10/2021 19:41

Because in addition to your neutrality and it's inclusiveness to some , it's exclusive to others

It makes me feel crap when I see it. I spent my life fighting against gender stereotypes, sexism in the workplace, showing my mind was as good as any bloke

and now people want to show how inclusive they are by pandering to an ideology that says "lady brain" is a thing

ErrolTheDragon · 31/10/2021 19:44

If it makes someone else feel that my organisation is inclusive then why is it a bad thing?

Well, it's not a good thing if adding pronouns allows them to 'feel more inclusive' but they're not genuinely 'inclusive' , in particular in the many industries which still have underrepresentation of women either overall or in senior positions

WTFCanIDoAboutThis · 31/10/2021 19:49

@bordersmidgebites

Because in addition to your neutrality and it's inclusiveness to some , it's exclusive to others

It makes me feel crap when I see it. I spent my life fighting against gender stereotypes, sexism in the workplace, showing my mind was as good as any bloke

and now people want to show how inclusive they are by pandering to an ideology that says "lady brain" is a thing

In all seriousness...does it actually affect you or are you being precious? You do you! if you don't want to put pronouns on your email then that's entirely your choice - but why get so offended by those who do?
WTFCanIDoAboutThis · 31/10/2021 19:49

@ErrolTheDragon

If it makes someone else feel that my organisation is inclusive then why is it a bad thing?

Well, it's not a good thing if adding pronouns allows them to 'feel more inclusive' but they're not genuinely 'inclusive' , in particular in the many industries which still have underrepresentation of women either overall or in senior positions

Most of them are at least trying.
bordersmidgebites · 31/10/2021 19:57

Yes it does affect me in all seriousness
I struggled tremendously as a child/teen to the extent that today I would be considered trans

And that level of disrespect , that idea that it's something about my brain that makes me a woman , is enough to make me very upset, searching for breast surgeons etc

bordersmidgebites · 31/10/2021 20:00

And then I think

Why the hec should I be expected to have surgery snd take hormones and physically change myself , do things that will harm my physical health so that people don't make that lady brain assumption about me ?

Floisme · 31/10/2021 20:04

Why is it a bad thing? As a business you might like to reflect that, as far as I'm concerned, stating your pronouns is a public announcement that your company endorses gender ideology which I consider to be an incoherent set of beliefs (ably illustrated by a thread only last night) and furthermore one that enforces stereotypes which I think are harmful to both women and men. But I do thank you for signalling this as it means I can take my business elsewhere.

GreyhoundG1rl · 31/10/2021 20:05

@Floisme

Why is it a bad thing? As a business you might like to reflect that, as far as I'm concerned, stating your pronouns is a public announcement that your company endorses gender ideology which I consider to be an incoherent set of beliefs (ably illustrated by a thread only last night) and furthermore one that enforces stereotypes which I think are harmful to both women and men. But I do thank you for signalling this as it means I can take my business elsewhere.
Couldn't agree more.
MidsomerMurmurs · 31/10/2021 20:06

@WTFCanIDoAboutThis In all seriousness...does it actually affect you or are you being precious? You do you! if you don't want to put pronouns on your email then that's entirely your choice - but why get so offended by those who do?

Wow yep that’s definitely convinced me! I mean, endorsing an explicitly homophobic ideology doesn’t affect me personally, so why should I be bothered when others do so? Yeah. Nice one. Time to just “be kind” of course! Those lesbians with their pesky “same sex” attraction need to get over themselves and stop saying they’re not interested in people with penises. “She/her” is more than enough, obv.

Leafstamp · 31/10/2021 20:06

@Floisme

Why is it a bad thing? As a business you might like to reflect that, as far as I'm concerned, stating your pronouns is a public announcement that your company endorses gender ideology which I consider to be an incoherent set of beliefs (ably illustrated by a thread only last night) and furthermore one that enforces stereotypes which I think are harmful to both women and men. But I do thank you for signalling this as it means I can take my business elsewhere.
Another one agreeing with this.
KimikosNightmare · 31/10/2021 20:09

My personal position on pronouns (not a popular one on this board I'm sure); it's a bit 'trendy' but it doesn't actually affect me positively or negatively to have it on my signature. If it makes someone else feel that my organisation is inclusive then why is it a bad thing?

My position on this is from the Douglas Murray/ Rod Liddle/Spectator/ can't be arsed with smug performative "look at me , I'm so right on" stance than a gender critical one.

If I'm a buyer from your organisation it would make me think less of you and it and if it were possible I'd take my business elsewhere. In reality I haven't seen this in any email yet but if and when I do I would stop using such a business for anything I was buying.

WTFCanIDoAboutThis · 31/10/2021 20:12

[quote MidsomerMurmurs]**@WTFCanIDoAboutThis* In all seriousness...does it actually affect you or are you being precious? You do you! if you don't want to put pronouns on your email then that's entirely your choice - but why get so offended by those who do?*

Wow yep that’s definitely convinced me! I mean, endorsing an explicitly homophobic ideology doesn’t affect me personally, so why should I be bothered when others do so? Yeah. Nice one. Time to just “be kind” of course! Those lesbians with their pesky “same sex” attraction need to get over themselves and stop saying they’re not interested in people with penises. “She/her” is more than enough, obv.[/quote]
I'm seriously not trying to be goady...I'm trying to understand what the actual offense is. How are pronouns 'explicitly homophobic' if it's a way of an individual demonstrating their own pronouns. How does one person's right to express themselves affect another person?

GameofPhones · 31/10/2021 20:14

Brilliant, thankyou to you and your friend, OP. I can see how the original could be edited for length, etc. but I have kept it as a model I can adapt appropriately.