#CisIsNotASlur trending on Twitter

[Slythermum]

I'm assuming through the garbled wordfuckery I'm seeing on twitter that this is people who don't understand language who are using that this is in response to:

a) The BBC article about Lesbians
b) Women objecting to the word "cis"
c) Shut up women
d) Dinosaurs
e) Shut up Lesbians
f) fannies

Meanwhile, my daughter has said girls in her class are saying "down with the cis bus" "cis people are evil", "cis should die" etc

"Gender expression is just a matter of how you like to express your gender or whatnot"

But what IS gender? In order to express it...

the vast majority of men are male and women are female, but as we can see with trans people, it's not always the case.

Source for this, please?

‘You still haven't explained gender identity though and how we all know of we have one or not?

Its not sex
Its not stereotypes

What is it?‘

Role play would be my guess

Gender roles/stereotypes is all that sexist bunk were trying to move away from.
Stuff like only women can like cooking

I feel like I am being spoken to by an alien who has never seen a chef on TV for the past 40 years.

[quote Millicispud]@Forgotthebins

Sure thing

Sex and gender are often linked, the vast majority of men are male and women are female, but as we can see with trans people, it's not always the case.

Gender expression is just a matter of how you like to express your gender or whatnot. Realistically, it's kind of irrelevant most of the time, but some people find it food to dress up how they like and express their masculinity/femininity in a way that suits them.

Gender roles/stereotypes is all that sexist bunk were trying to move away from.
Stuff like only women can like cooking and sewing and only men can be truckers and what not.
Gender roles is sorta cultural sexism, the idea that your gender or sex registered at birth should determine the rest of your life.

Gender itself is different.
It's the personal sense of self, oftentimes this is matching the sex of the person.[/quote]
Also, that contradicts what you replied earlier to me.

You said that being female with a gender identity of 'woman' makes you trans. (I can see that female-sex and gender-woman are different words and concepts, so this makes sense).

You mention a 'sense of self' matching the sex of the person. Please could you list which genders match which sexes to make someone not trans? It's not at all clear to me.

Gender itself is different.
It's the personal sense of self, oftentimes this is matching the sex of the person.

So how can someone decide their personal sense of self is the opposite gender without resorting to gender expression or gender roles? What exactly is it that makes someone feel they're a woman?

Gender roles is sorta cultural sexism, the idea that your gender or sex registered at birth should determine the rest of your life.

Gender or sex? I thought we'd had a lecture that they were different things upthread?

2 out of 10 for consistency.

Gender itself is different.
It's the personal sense of self, oftentimes this is matching the sex of the person.

So if it's nothing to do with stereotypes of behaviour or appearance, what is it?

Explain to me how I can work out what my gender or gender identity is. And is gender the same as gender identity?

This thread 🤣 it's even better than Dave Chappelle; the closer. And he's pretty funny 😁

(sits back and cracks open a beer)

"It's the personal sense of self, oftentimes this is matching the sex of the person."
Thanks for answering the question about what gender identity is. The problem I have with this definition is what does it mean for my 'sense of self ' to MATCH my sex? My sex is female. What does it mean to have a matching 'female self'?

If it’s a “personal sense of self”, how can it be that a male bodied trans person has a sense of self that they know for sure is womanly or feminine, when I, who actually am a woman, don’t have that sense at all? (And many, many women do not).

And if they did, and we accept that it’s true, why would a feminine gender identity be more important than a masculine everything else- brain, body, organs, every single cell?

People can believe what they want about themselves, but compelling everyone else to fall into line with belief systems they don’t hold never ends well.

[quote Millicispud]@anon12345678901

No, they are women.

What their biological is only really matters of they come onto my ward.[/quote]
Okay, so you agree that biologically speaking, men are not women. The language has always meant 'adult human female' and you concede that male people cannot be female. Great, that dispenses with that (you'd be surprised how many won't concede that one).

I'm pretty sure you will insist gender stereotypes aren't why - yes? That an interest in pretty dresses, babies, and baking isn't what makes someone a woman?

As a medical professional, you will know that it is impossible for someone to be 'born into the wrong body'. Yes? Every cell of our bodies is sexed, so a male person has a male body, and the brain is of course a part of that body - it's not somehow separate, like a soul floating in the ether. Our bodies are who we are, as an organism, and our brains just part of that. I mean, you're a medic. You know this.

So - why and how is a male person a woman? What is your rationale, here?

If you can explain how and why a male person is a woman, without resorting to stereotype, scientific impossibility, or quasi-religious belief, then I'm genuinely interested to hear it.

And if its a sense of self ajd everyone's different how come so many identify as men or women. What are the definitive criteria fir this there must be some or how would anyone know what they are ?

Gender itself is different.
It's the personal sense of self, oftentimes this is matching the sex of the person.

Personal sense of self! Sounds like describing a soul.

That is why people who don't believe it are treated like blasphemers. You're not allowed to be an atheist or you are hateful, and there is lobbying against a secular society. Every department and educational establishment must use the catechism.

So with gender identity it’s about making lots of words to describe people more clearly and give them labels like cis, non binary, trans, etc but simultaneously making lots of other words less clear and with no definition like woman, birthing person, lesbian, sex based discrimination etc?

Can I get out of the maze now?

If cis means an actual real biological woman then yes, I’m CIS

If cis means an actual real biological woman then yes, I’m CIS

You don't need to use cis to describe yourself as a biological woman though. If you are a biological woman, then the word woman will do. It always has done. Always will do.

“It’s the personal sense of self, oftentimes this is matching the sex of the person”

So sex matters? We need to know the sex of the person? Sex is important? Knowing someone’s sex is key?

Finally something we can agree on.

@Dontgetyerknicksinatwist

If cis means an actual real biological woman then yes, I’m CIS

Ahhh no, sorry. It’s not anywhere near as simple as that. Some real biological women are “men” now. There are “men” giving birth. These men are trans and definitely wouldn’t describe themselves as cis.

@OperationDessertStorm

“It’s the personal sense of self, oftentimes this is matching the sex of the person”

So sex matters? We need to know the sex of the person? Sex is important? Knowing someone’s sex is key?

Finally something we can agree on.

Yes, but now we have to work out how 'sense of self' can match 'male' or 'female'. Unless you literally describe your self or your gender as 'male' or 'female' and have the corresponding sex, the words don't match.

I don't know if you can have a gender of XX and a sex of XX, for example?

This is why I keep asking for the list of which genders match which sexes. Not yet forthcoming.

As I've said before, it's a bit like asking if your race matches your nationality. How could it? They are separate concepts.

I think you’ve spooked milli with your pesky logic, monsignor

I was going to congratulate them for at least being the first person to answer whether female-sex and gender-woman means trans or not!

I suppose as most of us are now trans there aren't any cis people here to put in their place?!

Monsignor, right, this is such a good point. Let's say my gender is 'woman'. What IS the gender of 'woman' such that it matches my female sex? Why does the 'woman' gender match the female sex but the 'man' gender does not match the female sex? To answer this question we aren't allowed to take note of stereotypes or gender roles, but there has to be something in the content of 'woman' which makes it a better fit (a comfortable fit, as stonewall puts it) to being the female sex. What is this content? And it also seems to me that the 'woman' gender must relate in some way to sex in order for a match to even make sense. Otherwise it's like saying 'your star sign identity needs to match your height' .

And to queer it up a bit...why does my gender identity even need to 'match' my sex in the first place? Where is this normative notion of matching even coming from? Who says that the woman gender identity must match the female sex? Who made this decision and why? Surely the most radical thing to do would be to say there is no such thing as cis or trans because there is no such thing as a mismatch between the body and identity - you are fine just the way you are.

Are their many women (ie females) at all who claim to have a "woman" gender identity?

I know there are lots of men that do, but as far as I can tell most women either (a) don't believe in gender identity or (b) believe in gender identity but say they're non-binary.

The number of women who believe in gender identity and say they've got a "woman" one is probably vanishingly small, right?

So "woman" may well be a predominantly-male gender identity.

Oh look, Milli has scarpered before giving an actual answer.

Milli told us what gender isn't. But didn't tell us what gender is.

I already know what gender isn't: shoe size, IQ, sex, height, proclivity to play with trains, science ability, cat or dog, and an infinite number of other things.

BUT NO FUCKER WILL TELL ME WHAT IT IS! I genuinely feel gaslit when I try and engage with posters who claim to believe that twaw and we're all hateful terfs.

Ffs will someone please take a punt and try and explain it to me?

I'm a lefty feminist, my gut wants to support an oppressed minority. I do sometimes wonder if 'we're the bad guys' but then countless women (and a few men) explain really clearly why gender ideology is harmful and how trans right requests are harming women and girls, and no one ever turns out coherently for the other team, so I can only conclude they have literally zero actual evidence or logic behind their argument