"Ace week" in girl guiding.

[WarriorN]

What fresh hell....

Thankfully a number of posters really not impressed. Worrying number think it's entirely appropriate

https://www.facebook.com/girlguidinguk/photos/a.398392309681/10158689026444682/?type=3

But it was worth reading it to find this excellent analysis of "Ace" identity and issues around it.

bryndisb.substack.com/p/asexuality-queering-the-mundane

[quote NoNotMeNoSiree]@vinsurvin
Great post, I'm not asexual but found it really informative[/quote]
Any comments on the minimisation of children "having sex" in the other post?

Ugh. Teaching young girls that not wanting/enjoying sex means they are asexual is a groomers dream come true.

But this seems like another groups issues are being taken over by the MRAs and fetishists once again.

I'm sure we have all met and know asexual people and I'm also sure that whilst they won't have suffered the same sort of prejudices gay people have suffered that they will have had to put up with being say the office weirdo; the cold fish; the sad spinster

I am all those ^ but I'm not asexual. So what? I do not live my life thinking that others must validate me or always be nice to me. I give no shits what they say about me behind my back (their opinion of me is none of my business) and if they were rude enough to say it to my face I answer in many different ways from humour to anger to sarcasm depending on who says what to me.
And lastly if the worst someone has ever had is mean words said directly to them then they are very very lucky.

I bet "I'm asexual" was the last excuse girls could legitimately use for a while, if they didn't want sex with somebody, hence the current push of "you can be asexual and still have sex". It's as rapey as being told to rethink your "prejudices".

[quote PumpkinGin]@MumofAceDD

Your daughter sounds wonderful. I don’t think anybody is saying anything about whatever her sexuality is. Of course children should be aware of different sexualities and feel validated.

My only point, which I keep reiterating, is that this discussion should only be initiated under very specific circumstances and subject to safeguarding restrictions.

Don’t you see that you and I are on the same page here?

You know exactly how you want advice your daughter to act, based on your knowledge of your daughter, don’t you?

Would you want any poster here who talks about fetishisation of your daughter’s sexuality to discuss this with her? Would you want them to initiate this discussion?

As parents, we know what is best for our children. Based on our knowledge of our children. Random adults should stay away from other people’s children.[/quote]
My daughter is a young adult, now at university. So I do not have any control over who she speaks to. I do know that she clocked another person in her halls wearing an ace ring, but I don’t know how much it comes into her conversations or daily life. When she was a child, then I did have some control over which clubs and activities she did (did not include GG) because I was paying, but it was her choice in the end.

My personal view is that social media is toxic and that I agree that there does not need to be discussion of sexuality outside SRE for children, but of course it spills over into the playground and outside school, so SRE should be inclusive as well as safe. My objection on this thread was to the casual prejudice throughout about asexuality. It is possible to make valid points about the place or not of sexuality in organisations without belittling or demeaning asexual people.

And the fact remains more broadly that in our culture there is little to no representation of asexual characters in culture, by which I am referring to the vast array of media that adults consume. So to that extent I agree with greater awareness and less prejudice.

@TinselAngel

I bet "I'm asexual" was the last excuse girls could legitimately use for a while, if they didn't want sex with somebody, hence the current push of "you can be asexual and still have sex". It's as rapey as being told to rethink your "prejudices".

Absolutely this.

Its not really about whether asexuality exists, its about how the concepts will be twisted to pressurise and abuse children into sex.

So kids who are being abused can now be told their lack of "enjoyment" is normal, because they are obviously just asexual.

If I was part of the asexual community I'd want to be damn sure that things being taught in "my name" were actually correct and couldn't be twisted in any way.

twitter.com/sarahstuartxx/status/1454523961207926786?s=21

Also:

"More: a reference to asexual people being prostitutes, being subject to 'corrective rape' and finally Yasmin again in her lingerie with breasts hanging out.

Confusing to say the least.

Do better @ Girlguiding !"

I don't feel any of the info out there is clear nor actual representative of someone who has no attraction or interest in sex. It's certainly not appropriate for 10 year olds.

Mum you make some good points. Unfortunately because it's seen as a sexuality and under the pride umbrella with flags and rings etc, it's open to abuse.

As below Its not really about whether asexuality exists, its about how the concepts will be twisted to pressurise and abuse children into sex.

Sorry mum, all your points are clear and important.

@TinselAngel

I bet "I'm asexual" was the last excuse girls could legitimately use for a while, if they didn't want sex with somebody, hence the current push of "you can be asexual and still have sex". It's as rapey as being told to rethink your "prejudices".

Yes, it kind of seems that way doesn't it?

Is this stuff being pushed in the Scouts as well? Why does it always seem to be Girl Guides? I can't help but think they are being targeted because of the idea that girls are more open to being accepting, are 'kinder', more malleable, less likely to say 'no'.......

There is constant social media trend to identify as something coupled with the vast amount of information/disinformation/blogs etc etc about the physical side of boy/girls relationships. I think many girls have been both frightened on what they think a relationship will require but feel that they can't articulate this thereby labelling themselves as asexual.

I partly think that choosing the label of asexual is fine as long it involves no more than that . We live in a time which is totally confusing for adults so teenagers must be totally flummoxed.

As for the GG - I don't think this should be on thier websites or social media platforms.

@WarriorN

https://twitter.com/sarahstuartxx/status/1454523961207926786?s=21

Also:

"More: a reference to asexual people being prostitutes, being subject to 'corrective rape' and finally Yasmin again in her lingerie with breasts hanging out.

Confusing to say the least.

Do better @ Girlguiding !"

I don't feel any of the info out there is clear nor actual representative of someone who has no attraction or interest in sex. It's certainly not appropriate for 10 year olds.

3 out of those 4 reasons pictured are rapey.

OK, for all those discussing asexuality in an adult context.

www.healthline.com/health/inhibited-sexual-desire

I actually googled it as I wanted to educate myself and I really don’t want to offend anyone.

It seems that there is ACE (asexuality =lack of sexual attraction, classified as an orientation) and ISD (inhibited sexual desire, which can have serious underlying causes, mental health, physical etc).

The first should clearly be respected and made more visible. The second needs to be investigated. There can be serious consequences if untreated..

I think is seems important to raise awareness of the co-existence of both. Nobody ACE should be made to feel misunderstood or harassed, but equally, nobody ISD (or HSDD) should be denied investigation and treatment. ISD can be serious and harmful.

And I maintain, this is a discussion for adults. No random adult should initiate any sexual discussion with children who are primary school aged. This should only be done by parents or in PSHE under safeguarding controls.

I think the misunderstandings among adults on this very thread shows how complex this is. Any discussion with children should be extremely controlled. The potential for misunderstandings is huge.

Would you agree @MumofAceDD? I am so happy your daughter is doing better btw.

@ninetynineAu

I have many many thoughts which I'm not going to mention here. But I will say I feel for the tween and teen girls who, surrounded by our now hyper-sexualised, pornified culture, and so much pressure to service males, even if they don't wat all want to, even if the act is repugnant to them or physically injures them.

And then they think they can find some safety in identifying as Asexual, only to then very quickly be informed that no. That escape's cut off at the pass too. It's almost like certain people. with certain vested interests already thought of that one and planned ahead-

Because now, ""Being Ace just means not experiencing sexual attraction to [any of the 7.8b genders] but they can still have sex with people"
and
"But lots of asexuals have lots of sex and they just love it and you can be an asexual aro-poly-am lesbian and also..." .

It's like an infinite range of flags and identities and sexual preferences identifying as orientations but is there even one sacred Identity or ""orientation"" which, must be respected as all the others, and allows teenage girls and young women to be left in peace to do their own thing?

Without being nagged day & night about how they should probably be available to penis all the time bc otherwise they're mean/causing blueballs/man-haters/t*rfs/sex-neg/not empowerrrred etc?

[yes I am v.pissed tf off, at adults who need to just leave kids alone]

Well said.

@WarriorN
”and finally Yasmin again in her lingerie with breasts hanging out
Confusing to say the least.”

I realise this was a quote from someone else, but I think it’s important to point out that there is nothing confusing at all about a woman wearing clothing that is perceived to be ‘sexy’ while saying she does not want - or is not interested in - sex. She can wear whatever she wants to without any conclusions being drawn about her interest (or otherwise) in having sex.

It's not my quote.

Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

Random adults should not initiate sexual discussions with other people’s primary school aged children. It is a safeguarding issue.

I am inspired by the Cato above. I feel like polishing my own statement and add it to every single post I make on this board.

But this is the content around "ace identity" online.

Pushing kink too.

It seems akin to how girl's clothes are heavily targeted with submissive and sexualised messages. 'Yeah, you can be ace but also wear all this lingerie and fit into the pornified gender stereotypes for girls and women.

I note the scouts do not seem to have celebrated ace week either.

Why is it more important for this to be marketed at girls?

What's the agenda?

@KatieAlcock a one second click on the name of the poster on that facebook thread calling themselves Little Owl shows that they have been married since 2012 and so clearly not a young leader. 🙄

You have your agenda (which you push all over any MN thread relating to Girlguiding) but you undermine yourself when you make such untrue statements.

In any case, young leaders have to do safe space level 1 and 2, so the second sentence in your post is also not accurate.

Pumpkin it's clear from what you looked up that there's different interpretations of asexuality, and as you say, can be linked to medical issues.

This is an important distinction between what some have discussed here of their own experiences and what's being pushed online and actually potentially in schools via some external teaching materials and charities.

Gg are not adequately trained in discussions around this.

Why is it more important for this to be marketed at girls?

That's what I'm wondering. The focus seems to be all on girls and women but if asexual is an orientation as Stonewall and other orgs are saying then there should be an equivalent amount of boys and men who are devoid of sexual feeling or response to any kind of stimuli (that isn't caused by a medical or disabling condition). Much easier to study in males too.

Warrior, I agree. It seems very complex.

One is a sexual orientation, the other is a medical/mental issue.

One needs to be respected and gain more awareness, the other needs investigation.

I don’t think any of the two acronyms (ACE or ISD) seems to benefit from over sexualised lingerie but adults are free to buy whatever they like.

But this should not be pushed by girl guides. No sexual conversation should be initiated by a random adult. It should only be done by parents or PSHE under strict safeguarding controls.

As for whether the adults initiating this discussion are young leaders or older leader, it is probably even more chilling with older as they should know better. But this discussion should never be initiated with children.

I would never initiate a conversation about sex with my children’s friends (8, 10). Do not some posters realise how inappropriate and wrong that would be?

If we had a child (8 or 10) over that initiated any sexual conversation with me (thank god this has never happened) I would be horrified. I would answer very non-committing and think carefully about whether I should approach the mum or the school’s head of pastoral. Probably depending on what was said.

PumpkinGin I would like to respond in a longer way but I need to get ready to go out.

In short, my view is - speaking of adults (including young adults) with my DD in mind because that is my main experience - that asexual people have probably gone through a long period of confusion and are well able to know in their own minds whether the definition of asexuality applies to them. Equally, people who experience ISD are probably also able to recognise themselves in the ISD definition. They should have access to resources and support, including medical if needed. But the key point is that it is a matter for the individuals concerned, who are adults, not anyone else, to say, unless they have specifically sought advice around it.

Also important I think is that there is a clear lack of research into asexuality. So if we think that sexology and sexual science began in the late 19th century with a focus on hetero and homosexuality, and one of the largest ever surveys on sexuality in the mid-20th century (Kinsey’s) put people who would fit the definition of asexual into a column marked X and did not investigate further, and that gay rights and acceptance of gay equality is more recent still (into the 20th century), then it is not difficult to see why there is so much misunderstanding and prejudice about asexuality. It is genuinely not part of the cultural discourse (and so when GG mention it, it is not only out of place because an organisation for children, but because it does not have a place in our culture, hope that makes sense). It is not even as if it has an uncontested place in Pride, many people would argue asexuality is not an orientation, it is an absence, and asexual people have not been persecuted, so don’t belong their either.

I need to go, but just a footnote that I also think Kinsey is problematic for a whole host of reasons, but that is a separate debate.

[quote Helen8220]@WarriorN
”and finally Yasmin again in her lingerie with breasts hanging out
Confusing to say the least.”

I realise this was a quote from someone else, but I think it’s important to point out that there is nothing confusing at all about a woman wearing clothing that is perceived to be ‘sexy’ while saying she does not want - or is not interested in - sex. She can wear whatever she wants to without any conclusions being drawn about her interest (or otherwise) in having sex.[/quote]
No, there isn't anything confusing about it.

It's quite clear.

From that picture of the underwear, asexuality means "I am not interested in having sex, but I believe being found sexually attractive will grant me social power and respect. So I want that, and I hope saying identifying as asexual will grant me the social power while designating me as unattainable, excusing me from pressure from men to have sex with them. I either have zero interest in feminism and breaking down our society's assumption that a woman's worth rests in whether she looks fuckable or zero faith that it can be done"