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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Ace week" in girl guiding.

392 replies

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 11:33

What fresh hell....

Thankfully a number of posters really not impressed. Worrying number think it's entirely appropriate Hmm

https://www.facebook.com/girlguidinguk/photos/a.398392309681/10158689026444682/?type=3

But it was worth reading it to find this excellent analysis of "Ace" identity and issues around it.

bryndisb.substack.com/p/asexuality-queering-the-mundane

OP posts:
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NoNotMeNoSiree · 30/10/2021 13:42

Loss of libido suggests you actually do have sexual feelings most of the time or have had for you to see it as a loss.
So no, how exactly is that the same?

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent · 30/10/2021 13:43

Guides don’t need to think of their Guiders in a sexual way. Why are they being guided along these lines?

I had a friend explain to me the other month that her 6 year old identified as asexual. I honestly haven’t spoken to her since. In what world does a 6 year old need to be pressured into identifying as anything. I was a dreadful bigot for pointing out that ALL 6 year olds are asexual.

I honestly can’t believe any of these people are sane.

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 13:45

[quote KatieAlcock]I have just tweeted about this

twitter.com/wontsomeonethi2/status/1454415343108206597?t=odlsva8YhpP_Ng2ufppxvg&s=19[/quote]

It's disgraceful Katie, and thank you for your will work in this.

I was particularly surprised that someone proudly claimed to have been active in bringing trans gender people into gg leadership. Aka transwomen.

OP posts:
NeverDropYourMooncup · 30/10/2021 13:50

@Rightsraptor

I absolutely do not need to know if any guide leader or anyone I work with is asexual. I think all this is part & parcel of the 'bring your whole self to work' thing.

No thank you.

If I had a choice, I'd far prefer leaving my womb and vagina at home and go to work without them. It would certainly make one week in four easier, that's for sure.

I don't want to know who, what or not somebody is doing to get their rocks off or keep them firmly on a rockery in their spare time whether I'm in the workplace, in the classroom or when responsible for 30 children. Unless it's children, animals or people who can't consent. Then they can get to fuck.

OneEpisode · 30/10/2021 13:53

I think you misunderstand NoNotMeNoSiree
It’s not a matter of transitioning not working. If GNRHA treatment works as Mermaids et all want, so from the first Tanner stage, then the child has none of their genetic puberty so none of their genetic sexual functioning. That is the intended result of full treatment of children with GNRHAs

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/10/2021 13:55

NoNotMeNoSiree

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense.

You misunderstood. I've edited your post so you can see where the misunderstanding arose.

"You're saying that some people think it's important for asexuality to be recognised so that if transitioning doesnt work out they can turn round and say '' oh well I can just be asexual, doesnt matter? " tell vulnerable young transitioners that they're asexual, instead of the victims of medical malpractice."

Yeah, I don't think it works like that.
You don't '' choose '' your sexuality and it'll be no different in this case.

Well, no, it will be very different. Lack of sexual desire due to iatrogenic effects (e.g gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonists, cross-sex hormones and genital surgery) is a different kettle of fish from an innate lack of interest in sex.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/10/2021 13:55

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense.

It's based on what the lawyers for the Tavistock said in the first court case Keira Bell brought against them.

They justified children possibly not being able to ever have an orgasm due to puberty blockers followed by cross sex hormones, and not being capable of understanding it enough to be considered to meaningfully consent to the treatment, with the fact that lots of people are asexual in later life anyway, so it wouldn't necessarily matter too much.

NewlyGranny · 30/10/2021 13:58

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Perpetualnoise · 30/10/2021 14:06

@NoNotMeNoSiree

Loss of libido suggests you actually do have sexual feelings most of the time or have had for you to see it as a loss. So no, how exactly is that the same?
The menopause comment was flippant. The trauma comment wasn't.
TheWeeDonkey · 30/10/2021 14:20

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

I have seen it said that asexual as an identity is very important to TRAs. If it is an identity that people can choose without judgement, then it makes it less problematic when adults are asexual because they were transitioned as children.
I think this is such an important point. I remember the only episode of I Am Jazz I watched, Jazz was in middle teens at the time discussing the lack of sexual feelings they had and how confused that made them feel. Very disturbing.
TheWeeDonkey · 30/10/2021 14:24

[quote ItsAllGoingToBeFine]Also, asexual themed underwear Hmm

twitter.com/theyasminbenoit/status/1452282041563820050?t=Hmxi0wj7wtBXxMYK0PYVLQ&s=19[/quote]
That looks like something from the Ann Summers catalogue.

Asexual is something I get confused about, I understand people having no or low sex drive, and I understand some people are celibate by choice, but the bondage wear, sexy poses and constant talking about sex makes me think this is something completely different?

Datun · 30/10/2021 14:30

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense.

It's based on what the lawyers for the Tavistock said in the first court case Keira Bell brought against them.

They justified children possibly not being able to ever have an orgasm due to puberty blockers followed by cross sex hormones, and not being capable of understanding it enough to be considered to meaningfully consent to the treatment, with the fact that lots of people are asexual in later life anyway, so it wouldn't necessarily matter too much.

This.

It's really disturbing that youth organisations are talking to children about their lack of sexual feelings. And celebrating asexuality in children.

Also, what is this claim that asexual people are having lots of sex?

Is this a narrative that you don't have to feel attracted to someone, or enjoy sex, in order to have it??

Every which way you look at it, it's disturbing.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/10/2021 14:31

Re children who don't go through normal puberty not developing a sexual response - this is the other big reason, together with potential loss of fertility, that pre-pubescent children just can't give informed consent to puberty blockers. Their brains and the rest of their bodies have not yet matured to the point where they can have any idea of what they're giving up. It doesn't take much imagination to remember what it's like being a young child. You haven't got a clue about being an adult and feeling sexual attraction, enjoying orgasm etc.

Beamur · 30/10/2021 14:32

I get the impression that being Ace is very much open to interpretation.
It doesn't make much logical sense.

Berthatydfil · 30/10/2021 14:39

Aren’t girl guides all under 16 ? In my day the older girls went to Rangers (?). Isn’t this a safeguarding issue ?

trancepants · 30/10/2021 14:52

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Beamur · 30/10/2021 14:54

Guides are 10-14
Rangers are 14-18

FrancescaContini · 30/10/2021 14:56

I’m horrified that anybody’s sexuality or lack thereof is discussed at or remotely relevant to GG meetings. It’s seriously disturbing. Where are the boundaries? Where’s the safeguarding?

Datun · 30/10/2021 15:04

And as Katie has pointed out on that Facebook link, where is their training? If a child says they are asexual, it could be due to trauma, not a happy clappy celebration of identity whilst singing Kumbaya.

Honestly. This relentless push to sexualise children from every angle is overwhelming. From bloody John Lewis to girl guiding

Datun · 30/10/2021 15:06

I really hope the papers picked this up.

topcat2014 · 30/10/2021 15:07

I hope this doesn't reach scouts. As a leader I wouldn't know what to do or say.

trancepants · 30/10/2021 15:20

@FrancescaContini

I’m horrified that anybody’s sexuality or lack thereof is discussed at or remotely relevant to GG meetings. It’s seriously disturbing. Where are the boundaries? Where’s the safeguarding?
I suppose it depends on context. If a woman guide leader happens to mention her wife at some natural point in a conversation, for example, that is technically letting it be known that she is lesbian or possibly bi. There are times in normal life where someone's sexuality will become known unless they actively hide it. And no-one should be stopped from mentioning their wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend if it's a situation where a heterosexual person could justifiably talk about that part of their life.
vinsurvin · 30/10/2021 15:23

Asexuality is an orientation.

Asexuality means - in its purest sense - that you feel no sexual attraction to anyone. This doesn't mean you don't have sex, it just means you don't feel sexually attracted, 'turned on', if you like, by anyone else.

It's an orientation just as much as heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality.

Children should learn about all types of sexual orientation. Not because it's an attempt to 'indoctrinate' them or make them think about their own sexuality, but because it's a way of helping them to understand that not everybody in the world is like them and/or their parents and they need to be understanding and open minded of different ways of living life. As they get older, understanding from a young age that it's normal and acceptable and totally fine to feel sexually attracted to the same sex, to feel attracted to both the opposite and same sex, and not to feel sexually attracted to anyone at all, is also vital to ensuring they feel safe, secure and comfortable in their own identities, whatever they might turn out to be.

The trauma caused to people by having to suppress their sexuality in a society that is heteronormative is well known. Asexual people are no different in this.

I am asexual - in that I feel no sexual attraction to anyone, and feel repulsed at the thought of sex - and have always been this way. It's just part of who I am. I have not experienced any trauma - never been sexually assaulted, grew up in a perfectly happy household. Both my siblings are happily married and had sexual partners from teenage years - I never did. Never got it, never understood it, never wanted it. It is so upsetting and offensive to constantly have people peddle this myth that there is no such thing as asexuality - just traumatised people. We would NEVER say that to homosexual people in this day and age - so why to asexual people?

I have spent my adult life forcing myself to have relationships with people because I thought that was what people did. I had no idea asexuality was an orientation. I had never been taught in any part of my own sexual health lessons at school that it was possible and indeed absolutely fine not to feel any sexual attraction at all. In a world where everyone talks about sex all the time, it's actually really hard and confusing to be someone who doesn't ever think about it, and doesn't know why they don't think about it. Discovering asexuality a couple of years ago has given me so much freedom. I could have been spared so much pain and confusion if someone at some point in my childhood or teenage years had told me that asexuality existed as an orientation. As such, I wholeheartedly agree with the girlguides raising awareness of this. If that could help one girl in the future avoid the pain I've experienced as an adult trying to force myself to fit into a heteronormative world, then it will be doing a great service.

It is very saddening to read such ignorance and bigotry on this thread. I don't support the current trends in gender ideology at all, but asexuality as a sexual orientation is real, it is involuntary and it is disgusting to read the kinds of dismissive, cruel and actually quite nasty comments on here about asexuality. I am not traumatised, I am not mentally ill, I don't have a hormone disorder and I am not repressing my homosexuality. @trancepants I am reporting your post because it's downright misinformation and wholly insensitive and offensive.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/10/2021 15:27

@doublemonkey

Yep. I've said it before but there are potentially a handful of people who have any business talking to kids about sex and sexuality -parents, guardians and teachers.

Are we allowed to use the word 'grooming' now without getting the post deleted?

I got deleted for using the word in relation to children and certain aspects of an ideology this week. I'm not sure what we're meant to call it when adults repeatedly introduce age inappropriate concepts about sex to children?

Maybe 🚩 🚩🚩 🚩🚩 🚩 behaviour?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/10/2021 15:31

vinsurvin
This is about children, not adults.
Children are not meant to have sexual relationships. Until recently society acknowledged this and worked hard to stop over invested adults having age inappropriate discussions with children about sex.
Adults should be free to adopt whatever orientations they want (within the law). But involving children in these discussions is unacceptable.
That's the issue being discussed here.