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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Ace week" in girl guiding.

392 replies

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 11:33

What fresh hell....

Thankfully a number of posters really not impressed. Worrying number think it's entirely appropriate Hmm

https://www.facebook.com/girlguidinguk/photos/a.398392309681/10158689026444682/?type=3

But it was worth reading it to find this excellent analysis of "Ace" identity and issues around it.

bryndisb.substack.com/p/asexuality-queering-the-mundane

OP posts:
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slashlover · 04/11/2021 11:33

But prepubertal children not liking anyone is a normal stage of development. It’s not a sign of anything, particularly not a made up sexuality like asexuality. So if you tell children that not liking anyone is their sexuality, you are sexualising normal behaviour. This is not appropriate.

Made up? Asexuality was first mentioned in the 1890s.

And if a young child says to you “I don’t like anyone, does that mean I’m asexual?” how are you answering that question appropriately?

Exactly the same "when you’re older you’ll like boys/men, girls/women, both or neither. Each of those is fine."

Also, why is everyone focused on prepubertal children?

slashlover · 04/11/2021 11:34

Of course, there will be some people who are delighted that children are being subjected to talks about sexuality. But there will be a whole bunch of other people who are just uninformed, and think it's 'cool'.

Every single guide leader on the other thread said that nobody is talking to the children about asexuality. It's a tweet on a 13+ platform.

Datun · 04/11/2021 11:39

@slashlover

Of course, there will be some people who are delighted that children are being subjected to talks about sexuality. But there will be a whole bunch of other people who are just uninformed, and think it's 'cool'.

Every single guide leader on the other thread said that nobody is talking to the children about asexuality. It's a tweet on a 13+ platform.

Yeah, guide leaders should not be talking to 13-year-olds about their sexuality, or lack of it, either.

Guide leaders should not be talking to children about their sexuality, at all. They are not trained in any kind of PSHE. It's a completely inappropriate.

slashlover · 04/11/2021 11:41

Yeah, guide leaders should not be talking to 13-year-olds about their sexuality, or lack of it, either.

Guide leaders should not be talking to children about their sexuality, at all. They are not trained in any kind of PSHE. It's a completely inappropriate.

Thay aren't though.

ferretface · 04/11/2021 11:41

Can't kids just have a space that is free from discussion of sex, gender, sexuality...There is SO MUCH of this stuff aimed at them at the moment and it encourages/forces kids to start forming views at a time when they may not be ready to do so.

I think there is a place for proper sensitive discussions around all things sexuality and sexual health/safety in schools - from a perspective that kids need to understand their own bodies and need to be safe and secure. But I don't think Girlguiding should be taking that role. It would be like my running club having an asexuality week. The focus is on learning skills with peers and having fun, it is not the place for it.

BelleOfTheProvince · 04/11/2021 11:42

Well there's a current leader and a former leader on this thread who disagree with GGs stance.

As was patiently explained to you on the other thread, the focus on prepubescent children is because guides includes that age range. Guiding catering for such a wide age range means they need to be more thorough with making sure only age appropriate content filters in.

People also expect those who work with children, whether paid or voluntary to understand basic safeguarding.

Datun · 04/11/2021 11:44

@slashlover

Yeah, guide leaders should not be talking to 13-year-olds about their sexuality, or lack of it, either.

Guide leaders should not be talking to children about their sexuality, at all. They are not trained in any kind of PSHE. It's a completely inappropriate.

Thay aren't though.

Good to know, and glad you agree.
LobsterNapkin · 04/11/2021 11:45

I said similar to this on the AIBU thread and got told to fuck off! Although it seemed there were some poster on there who weren't exactly acting in good faith.

There was an AIBU thread a while ago about a guy who was uncomfortable because his company had some sort of day where they all wre supposed to talk about their sexual identity, and one gay employee was asked to do a write up in the company newsletter where he talked about how happy he was to bring his whole self to work.

I thought it was notable how many people in the discussion didn't seem to understand the difference between someone casually mentioning a partner, or bringing them to a work event that includes partners, and this idea that everyone needs to know everyone's sexuality so they can bring their whole self to work.

A few posters said something which I think is really important to understanding how people are thinking about all this: to the effect that sexuality was a fundamental element of identity so to be validated as a human being in the most basic way meant that we all have to be open with each other about our sexuality.

If that is the mindset, then a person who doesn't have a strong attachment to a category of gay or straight might feel some necessity to have some other identity category to replace them. It's all quite different than the older view in the earlier days of many gay rights movements that proposed that sexuality was just one aspect of a person's life, rather than an identity. I suspect lobby groups adopted the identity approach because it's better for their bottom line. But it lends itself to multiplying into a plethora of different sexual identities.

I don't take that view and I think that as a leader in a children's organisation, sometimes it may even be appropriate to be more private than you would be in a workplace, depending on the kids you are working with. You aren't there to bring your whole self, you are there to help the kids.

BloodinGutters · 04/11/2021 11:45

@slashlover

Yeah, guide leaders should not be talking to 13-year-olds about their sexuality, or lack of it, either.

Guide leaders should not be talking to children about their sexuality, at all. They are not trained in any kind of PSHE. It's a completely inappropriate.

Thay aren't though.

There was one poster on the other thread who said it was brought up gg class and the way that poster explained it most definitely sounded like all @Datun concerns listed were included in the explanations given in the group.

It was also on the fb pages not just ‘one tweet’ as so many seem keen to diminish it too.

@2fallsfromSSA letter is exactly right.

LobsterNapkin · 04/11/2021 11:47

@slashlover

But prepubertal children not liking anyone is a normal stage of development. It’s not a sign of anything, particularly not a made up sexuality like asexuality. So if you tell children that not liking anyone is their sexuality, you are sexualising normal behaviour. This is not appropriate.

Made up? Asexuality was first mentioned in the 1890s.

And if a young child says to you “I don’t like anyone, does that mean I’m asexual?” how are you answering that question appropriately?

Exactly the same "when you’re older you’ll like boys/men, girls/women, both or neither. Each of those is fine."

Also, why is everyone focused on prepubertal children?

Asexuality was not understood as a sexual identity. That's not the same.
LobsterNapkin · 04/11/2021 11:50

@ferretface

Can't kids just have a space that is free from discussion of sex, gender, sexuality...There is SO MUCH of this stuff aimed at them at the moment and it encourages/forces kids to start forming views at a time when they may not be ready to do so.

I think there is a place for proper sensitive discussions around all things sexuality and sexual health/safety in schools - from a perspective that kids need to understand their own bodies and need to be safe and secure. But I don't think Girlguiding should be taking that role. It would be like my running club having an asexuality week. The focus is on learning skills with peers and having fun, it is not the place for it.

I don't understand why GG would even think this is their remit. What's next, lessons of sexuality at karate class? At orchestra?

It's seriously not their job.

They talk about wanting to be open to girls from all sorts of backgrounds - do they really think that parents from widely different backgrounds will all have the same views?

Helleofabore · 04/11/2021 11:53

You seem to misunderstand between teenagers exploring their sexuality in a normal way and adults overstepping boundaries.

There is so much of this going around at the moment.

And there seems to be adults who simply cannot recognise sexualised behaviour if a shoe was flung from the foot of a boy pouting and strutting around and hit them in the head. It is a grave worry.

Datun · 04/11/2021 12:04

From what I remember the ex head of girl guides Julie Bentley was friends with Simon Bentley the deputy chair of Stonewall. They both met when they worked at Brook, the sexual advisory clinic for young people.

KittenKong · 04/11/2021 12:56

Shame she wasn’t a ‘good effect’ on him...

NotBadConsidering · 04/11/2021 19:57

@slashlover

But prepubertal children not liking anyone is a normal stage of development. It’s not a sign of anything, particularly not a made up sexuality like asexuality. So if you tell children that not liking anyone is their sexuality, you are sexualising normal behaviour. This is not appropriate.

Made up? Asexuality was first mentioned in the 1890s.

And if a young child says to you “I don’t like anyone, does that mean I’m asexual?” how are you answering that question appropriately?

Exactly the same "when you’re older you’ll like boys/men, girls/women, both or neither. Each of those is fine."

Also, why is everyone focused on prepubertal children?

You didn’t fill in the blank though. How are you supposed to help a child differentiate between not liking anyone as a child, which is normal, and ending up asexual as an adult? How do you do that in an age appropriate way?

“I don’t like anyone now. Am I asexual?”

“When you’re older you won’t like anyone.”

“But I don’t like anyone now. Isn’t that the same?”

“No, it’s different because

How? Can you fill in the blank? If you’re happt to have this issue discussed with children, you need to explain how you’re going to make sure they can understand the difference between what they feel now being normal, and what might turn into asexuality, with its complex nature of sex without attraction that you’ve described.

Can that blank be filled appropriately?

Doubletoilandtrouble · 04/11/2021 20:11

I came across these cartoons from a person who is actively hating GC women. I am just going to put a screen shot here.

"Ace week" in girl guiding.
Datun · 04/11/2021 20:26

You didn’t fill in the blank though. How are you supposed to help a child differentiate between not liking anyone as a child, which is normal, and ending up asexual as an adult? How do you do that in an age appropriate way?

You can't.

Not liking someone, not getting married to someone, not dating someone is a completely different premise to not wanting to have sex with someone.

And everyone knows it.

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