Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Ace week" in girl guiding.

392 replies

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 11:33

What fresh hell....

Thankfully a number of posters really not impressed. Worrying number think it's entirely appropriate Hmm

https://www.facebook.com/girlguidinguk/photos/a.398392309681/10158689026444682/?type=3

But it was worth reading it to find this excellent analysis of "Ace" identity and issues around it.

bryndisb.substack.com/p/asexuality-queering-the-mundane

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
RepentMotherfucker · 30/10/2021 18:21

You're not allowed to say a child has been groomed????? Wow.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/10/2021 19:01

[quote vinsurvin]@MrsOvertonsWindow I'm sorry to break it to you, but children do have sexual relationships. Children are increasingly being sexualised from a very young age. Children have 'boyfriends' and 'girlfriends' at primary school. It's an unfortunate truth that children are having sex or experimenting with sexual touching while still at primary school. You might not like it, but it is the reality and will continue to be so - the average age of puberty is getting younger and younger in Western society which means sexual feelings are kicking in younger and younger.

Pretending this isn't happening isn't going to help matters. It is what it is and we have to provide safe frameworks to educate and keep children safe as they learn to navigate their sexual feelings. As such, we have to prepare children and explain to them -in age appropriate terms - what sex is, who has sex and with whom, and what it's ok for them to do and what it's not ok to do, from a fairly young age. Introducing them to the idea that not everyone has sex with someone of the opposite sex is not harmful or damaging in any way. The pearl clutching on here is ridiculous. Girlguiding are not suggesting that they are going to be holding sessions where girls are going to be forced to declare themselves as any particular sexuality. They're simply raising awareness that asexuality exists. I don't see why that would be a problem. Why do you find asexuality as an orientation so threatening? I'm confused.[/quote]
I know a lot about children in primary schools and their sexual experiences. Every one of them was either being sexually abused by adult (teacher, learning mentor, scout / cub master, priest, sports coach, private tutor) or involved with age inappropriate behaviour with another child. None of these children consented. Some of these children were let down by adults who failed to listen to their disclosures.
Dismissing those of us who know about safeguarding, who work with even the youngest of children as "pearl clutchers" displays a personal arrogance and level of ignorance about safeguarding .
I hope that your comments are made from ignorance and that you are in no way involved with children. If you do work with children, please research professional dangerousness as a concept. Countless serious case reviews (or Child Safeguarding Practice Reviews as they are now known) identify professional dangerousness significant factor. Adults who consider that they know better and ignore the established safeguarding principles end up being identified as contributing to the serious harm and often death of a child.
My (lesbian) sexual identity is irrelevant to my professional work with children. As it should be for every adult.

thevassal · 30/10/2021 19:13

I think it's a fair point if you don't want anyone to talk about sex other than a parent or teacher. I don't necessarily agree, because I think young people might have questions they might not feel comfortable asking their parents or their teacher, and asking another trusted adult (and guiders should be crb checked) or discussing in a small group where they won't be mocked or have the awkwardness of raising it in front of their classmates or main friendship group) is quite beneficial. But if that's your viewpoint then OK.

But looking at the guiding website it seems like they've got lots of information about being gay, lesbian and bisexual, and have been 'celebrating' and teaching about them for some time, so I struggle to see how mentioning asexuality is any different. If it's a case of "some people are attracted to the opposite sex, some people are attracted to the same sex, some are attracted to both, and some aren't attracted to anyone at all, and all of those are okay," then I really struggle to see what the problem is? It might even help girls whose parents feel the way of some of the bigoted posters on this thread to have another adult say they are not sexually traumatised, physically or mentally ill, a possible pedophile, or appropriating the trauma of gay people. 🤔

If you dont want guiders to talk about any sexuality at all then fair enough. But if your daughter asks a guider if she has a boyfriend for example, then if it's OK for her to say "No, I'm gay," then it should be equally fine for her to say "No, I'm asexual." None of this has to be a particularly big deal and I imagine to the girls it's being discussed with its not!

MumofAceDD · 30/10/2021 19:24

I have only got half way down the second page and I had to stop reading. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I do not think that any discussion of personal sexuality belongs in primary school, or indeed any sexuality outside of it in activities children do. So I don’t support asexuality coming into Girl Guides, it is not appropriate.

But my DD would very much have appreciated asexuality being recognised as a thing during her secondary years, in sex and relationships education where they assume everyone wants to have sex, to English where they assume everyone will fall in love when teaching Shakespeare, to the general cultural trope in almost all culture that people have sex, it is not hard to change the narrative to most people and to recognise asexuality in SRE when hetero/homo/bi sexuality are all recognised. Being asexual caused her a lot of anxiety because she thought there was something wrong with her (and it is disappointing on this thread to see people rehearsing such ideas). The threads I have read on MN about asexuality are all pretty prejudiced, to be honest, in a way that has surprised me, whereas in fact, for my DD, realising asexuality was a thing made her more confident in herself and not think there was something wrong with her.

Just because trans rights advocates are apparently using asexuality to make arguments about young people transitioning does not mean that there are not genuinely asexual people out there who need support and indeed, acceptance. I agree about discussion being age appropriate; my DD would not for example discuss being asexual in front of her younger siblings not would I, but aside from me, I am fairly sure her friends know. Not least because she wants to head off romantic overtures and be accepted for who she is.

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 19:27

Asexuality is not a sexuality.

It's an absence of sexuality. As said upthread.

And yes true asexuality must be difficult.

Many of the girl guides won't be feeling much of any sort of sexuality and in reality, it's neither here nor there if they do in guides.

It's extremely inappropriate to pigeonhole and label children and teens at such a young age with a "queer label." Let them be kids.

Especially as it's extremely clear that there are many interpretations of "ace." Including shagging around but not feeling any attachment.

Safe sex perhaps, if appropriate, I'm not sure at girl guide level. Perhaps for older ones. It should be being covered at school. We had it in venture scouts in the 90's but really bloody needed itas we were 16+ I'm a teacher and well aware of how children begin to explore relationships but they need key clear messages communicated, not adult confusing melting pots of queer theory. Which would detract from key RSE messages.

Note that ventures was mixed sex. I joined for that reason when I was at 6th dorm, as many of my friends were. It's still worrying that Gg accepts males who want to join Girl guides at that age and also the adult males who have been ushered in.

How on Earth it's feasible to discuss this and not international lesbian day I've no idea.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 30/10/2021 19:32

But mum, I was that teen. I can understand your dd's perception.

The messages should be that it's ok to feel that you don't need to be pressured or coerced into sex. This is about consent. Not that you are a label.

And to give yourself labels and pigeon hole yourself could end up defining yourself to yourself and others at an age when it's all confusing and changes daily.

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/10/2021 19:44

As such, at school, we teach children that some people have two mummies or two daddies, because not everyone is heterosexual.

As part of that, we can also teach them that some people never have any sexual feelings at all, and that's ok.

These two things are not the same. The two mummies or two daddies is not about sex. For those two things to be the same the first paragraph would need to be

"Some people have sexual feelings for the same sex, and some for the opposite sex, and some for both"

MumofAceDD · 30/10/2021 19:52

It is not just about consent though, the way she explains it, or not wanting to be coerced or pressured into having sex. And it doesn’t seem to change daily, she says she has known it as long as she was able to understand about relationships and sex, and when she learned about asexuality, it made sense to her.

You would not say to someone who says they are gay at 20 that well, it changes daily, why label yourself? So why say that about someone who says they are asexual? It’s bizarre.

When she told me, she said she knew I would say she didn’t need a label to feel comfortable in herself but it was important to her.

But anyway, it is a separate issue from what is appropriate to discuss at Guides. I just find some of the attitudes towards asexuality quite eye-opening, really.

FemaleAndLearning · 30/10/2021 20:15

"for a teenage girl to have a handy and socially acceptable label to append to explain disinterest in sexual involvement before she's ready"

I don't understand this. Girls shouldn't need an alternative label to the word no. I understand peer pressure but it's like saying to a bloke I'm not interested in you because I'm a lesbian. Girls and women should be respected when using the word no.

I think the problem with the asexual identity is that it is a spectrum and I've heard some ridiculous things. Like "I'm asexual but sometimes I do feel sexual attraction if it is the right person." Also the greys and the romantics who say "I can only feel sexual attraction with someone I have romantic feelings for." Duh isn't that many of us? I see it as an adult identity label but not a sexual orientation. I don't see this as something that should be discussed with children. As a mum my young children knew you could love a man or a woman, but they didn't need to know about sex or that some people didn't have sex.
Great if you are an adult and you believe this about yourself.

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 20:24

The thing is at girl guides if you've discussed Aces, what else will be discussed? (Clearly not lesbians. Hmm)

Especially given that Gg don't have clear understandings of boundaries around being single sex.

You would not say to someone who says they are gay at 20 that well, it changes daily, why label yourself?
That's is subtly different. Many teens actually don't feel like being sexually active. This is quite normal. And are more than likely going to become so as they get older. but the key point is all the other sexuality labels and the way they lead into confused boundaries.

If it really were as described by your daughter's experience, not an huge issue, except it's clearly not ( as in link in op) and again, therefore what on Earth is the relevance in Gg?

I can see it in a way at school, with current reams of identities and sexualities it inoculates against all the pan sexuals etc. But it's a shame normal young teens have been made to feel unusual and thus need a label.

As said, young people such as Jazz Jennings have unfortunately become asexual by force following botched surgeries, botched due to the effects of puberty blockers. (Jazz's own surgeon has now said pb's for children are not appropriate.)

OP posts:
KimikosNightmare · 30/10/2021 20:27

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

I suppose the point is you've told her some men go out with and marry men, some women go out with and marry women, she will be surrounded with evidence that the majority of adult people "go out with and marry" people of the opposite sex, so telling her some people aren't interested at all is hardly difficult.

I understand your point, but then there are lots of people who never get married, never date etc and there could be lots of reasons for that, not just that they are asexual. What is it that you would be telling a prepubscent child that asexual people 'are not interested in'?

I guess I'm just wondering why it's necessary to tell kids about an absence of sexual feelings, while they are still too young to really know what sexual feelings are anyway?

If I am being absolutely honest here, I do also feel like there is some appropriation going on as well. Gay people in the past were massively discriminated against for their sexuality, they were (and still are in some countries) murdered, they were discriminated against at work, they went to prison for being gay. In what way have asexual people suffered anything like that?

We probably all know asexual people in real life and just haven't given it that much thought?

I wasn't suggesting you tell them there are a sexuals- but simply that some people don't get involved in any sort of romantic relationship and that's all right too.
KimikosNightmare · 30/10/2021 20:32

In what way have asexual people suffered anything like that?

They haven't

We probably all know asexual people in real life and just haven't given it that much thought?

I'm sure we have all met and know asexual people and I'm also sure that whilst they won't have suffered the same sort of prejudices gay people have suffered that they will have had to put up with being say the office weirdo; the cold fish; the sad spinster.

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 20:37

I guess I'm just wondering why it's necessary to tell kids about an absence of sexual feelings, while they are still too young to really know what sexual feelings are anyway?

Precisely. And I do feel putting asexuality and all these other sexualities on a par with being gay or lesbian is quite offensive. As people are still killed for being so, and suffer prejudice as seen by the bbc lesbian story backlash. (And GG aren't even taking note of international lesbian days/ weeks etc.)

OP posts:
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/10/2021 20:45

@KimikosNightmare

In what way have asexual people suffered anything like that?

They haven't

We probably all know asexual people in real life and just haven't given it that much thought?

I'm sure we have all met and know asexual people and I'm also sure that whilst they won't have suffered the same sort of prejudices gay people have suffered that they will have had to put up with being say the office weirdo; the cold fish; the sad spinster.

I agree that people can be very cruel to those they believe are not following social norms. However, I really don't think this is comparable to being sent to prison, sacked or even executed for engaging in a sexual act, or losing custody of children, or being debarred from certain professions. All of those things have happened in living memory to gay men, lesbians and bisexual people in this country, and those things are still happening to LGB people in many, many other countries around the world.
PumpkinGin · 30/10/2021 20:46

@thevassal

Thank you for seeing my point of view. I don’t want a random adult to talk to my children about sex and sexuality. If my children would trust an adult and ask a question, then fine. But I would expect to be told about it (very casually).

I don’t differentiate between straight, homosexual, bi, or asexual. For me, it is the discussion about sex which shouldn’t be initiated by an adult. At all. It definitely should not be taught outside school.

In school, it should follow a PSHE curriculum, be taught be experienced teachers and shared with me in advance.

Maybe some children cannot talk to their parents. My children talk to me. After the sex Ed in school, the first thing they did was to talk to me. After the pride etc talk, the first thing they did was to ask me. They had got some things wrong. We cleared it up. That is ok.

Just because some random children whom I don’t know are sexualised early and cannot talk to their parents, that does not give random adults the right to cross boundaries and try to “educate” my children about sex.

Some topics should never be initiated by adults unless in a very controlled setting. It crosses a boundary. The next time, this boundary will be easier to cross. That is wrong on so many levels.

PumpkinGin · 30/10/2021 20:54

OMG, asexuality as a “handy label to justify why a girl don’t want to have sex before she is ready”.

This is why I don’t want any random adults to talk to my children about sex. Has the world gone completely mad??? “No” is sufficient. If you are not ready, the answer is “No”. If you don’t like the other person enough, the answer is “No”.

Please, for any lurkers. Just look at how this is portrayed. This is absolutely crazy.

The same people who think that you need some label to justify why you don’t want to have sex, these people want me to trust them and other random adults to talk to my children about sex.

Not only does this erode essential boundaries, it also causes harm.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 30/10/2021 21:01

There is another consequence if girls are encouraged to label themselves asexual.

They'll become the next fetish target for entitlement to their bodies, that they're being selfish in not giving somebody access to it on the basis of a mere absence of attraction. Like nuns and vestal virgins, both heavily fetishised (and yes, of course some would have chosen to not have sex when they did have desire, but some would be drawn to it because they had no interest in sex) in certain genres.

Why give it a label so it can become an object of desire?

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 21:02

Key point; the curriculum has set guidelines which I imagine will be revisited and reviewed more regularly than in the past. Curriculum Written by experts and subject to Ofsted. The safeguarding schools do is of a higher level and different to what Gg would do.

Gg does not follow that curriculum. And is not Ofsteded.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 30/10/2021 21:04

My first thought was that this is fetishisation of normal feelings.

OP posts:
MumofAceDD · 30/10/2021 21:04

@WarriorN

The thing is at girl guides if you've discussed Aces, what else will be discussed? (Clearly not lesbians. Hmm)

Especially given that Gg don't have clear understandings of boundaries around being single sex.

You would not say to someone who says they are gay at 20 that well, it changes daily, why label yourself?
That's is subtly different. Many teens actually don't feel like being sexually active. This is quite normal. And are more than likely going to become so as they get older. but the key point is all the other sexuality labels and the way they lead into confused boundaries.

If it really were as described by your daughter's experience, not an huge issue, except it's clearly not ( as in link in op) and again, therefore what on Earth is the relevance in Gg?

I can see it in a way at school, with current reams of identities and sexualities it inoculates against all the pan sexuals etc. But it's a shame normal young teens have been made to feel unusual and thus need a label.

As said, young people such as Jazz Jennings have unfortunately become asexual by force following botched surgeries, botched due to the effects of puberty blockers. (Jazz's own surgeon has now said pb's for children are not appropriate.)

It’s not different from telling someone they might not be gay because it is not ‘not feeling like being sexually active’; I don’t feel like being sexually active but I know if I feel attracted to someone or have sexual feelings. I didn’t feel like being sexually active as a teenager, but I did ‘get’ heterosexuality (being straight) and associated feelings.

The thing is, one can have a perfectly legitimate and valid discussion about whether it is appropriate in GG to bring in, or the medicalisation of young people resulting in lack of sexual feeling, without making unfounded comments about asexuality being a result of trauma, hormone imbalance, a phase, just a label, that asexuals are the office weirdo, sad spinster, cold fish, not really asexual because other people call themselves asexual and have sex (these examples were just the first and last page of this thread). That is what I was responding to.

My DD has a large friendship group of both sexes, she would not stick out in a crowd in anyway, in fact she would hate to stick out. You wouldn’t know if she didn’t tell you (and she is not likely to do that). I don’t even know if she would be upset by these kind of comments, or just accept that understanding of asexuality is in its infancy as very under-researched and not culturally normal. She understands that. But she would have appreciated it being acknowledged as a possibility growing up, in the examples I gave upthread. That is all I am saying.

She did not go to GG but she went to various other activities where I think it would have been bizarre to bring sexuality into it, but SRE and certain contexts in high school, and indeed beyond, recognition of asexuality would be appropriate and helpful.

MumofAceDD · 30/10/2021 21:05

posted too soon - should have added ‘fetishisation of normal feelings to my list above’

Good grief - ??!?

MumofAceDD · 30/10/2021 21:10

@NeverDropYourMooncup

There is another consequence if girls are encouraged to label themselves asexual.

They'll become the next fetish target for entitlement to their bodies, that they're being selfish in not giving somebody access to it on the basis of a mere absence of attraction. Like nuns and vestal virgins, both heavily fetishised (and yes, of course some would have chosen to not have sex when they did have desire, but some would be drawn to it because they had no interest in sex) in certain genres.

Why give it a label so it can become an object of desire?

Am I understanding you correctly that young women should not say they are asexual which may help them understand themselves in case they become objects of desire and fetishised (by whom? They should pretend to be sexual, and understand and have a sexuality? How would they do that?
PumpkinGin · 30/10/2021 21:26

@MumofAceDD

Your daughter sounds wonderful. I don’t think anybody is saying anything about whatever her sexuality is. Of course children should be aware of different sexualities and feel validated.

My only point, which I keep reiterating, is that this discussion should only be initiated under very specific circumstances and subject to safeguarding restrictions.

Don’t you see that you and I are on the same page here?

You know exactly how you want advice your daughter to act, based on your knowledge of your daughter, don’t you?

Would you want any poster here who talks about fetishisation of your daughter’s sexuality to discuss this with her? Would you want them to initiate this discussion?

As parents, we know what is best for our children. Based on our knowledge of our children. Random adults should stay away from other people’s children.

NoNotMeNoSiree · 30/10/2021 21:35

@NeverDropYourMooncup

There is another consequence if girls are encouraged to label themselves asexual.

They'll become the next fetish target for entitlement to their bodies, that they're being selfish in not giving somebody access to it on the basis of a mere absence of attraction. Like nuns and vestal virgins, both heavily fetishised (and yes, of course some would have chosen to not have sex when they did have desire, but some would be drawn to it because they had no interest in sex) in certain genres.

Why give it a label so it can become an object of desire?

You've just made up an entirely fictional scenario in your head there though. '' They'll become''..... says who? Just someone's imagination?
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/10/2021 21:38

Do you deny that nuns are fetishised? That the vestal virgins were?

In fact, the Roman emperor whom some people have claimed was trans on FWR did marry a Vestal Virgin. History does not record what she thought of being married to the Emperor instead of being a temple priestess.