"Ace week" in girl guiding.

[WarriorN]

What fresh hell....

Thankfully a number of posters really not impressed. Worrying number think it's entirely appropriate

https://www.facebook.com/girlguidinguk/photos/a.398392309681/10158689026444682/?type=3

But it was worth reading it to find this excellent analysis of "Ace" identity and issues around it.

bryndisb.substack.com/p/asexuality-queering-the-mundane

I've no issue with youngsters learning about various leanings but what would annoy me is it being done at guides. Lessons on sexual orientation would not be something I'd expect them to learn about.

Do they get a badge for sexual orientation awareness?

Unfortunately a lot of safeguarding is necessarily offensive to someone.

Again, I repeat. This thread is about children under 14 years of age. I don't give a shiny shite how adults feel about their sexuality, and I don't care how offended they may be if I point out that some discussion is unsuitable for children.

@Beamur

Guide Leaders are volunteers. They have safeguarding training but are not professionals. I genuinely think as an organisation it means well and values inclusion. However I don't know how Leaders are expected to know the difference between a child speaking with them about something private, such as talking about their sexuality, which is not considered to be something that requires disclosure. Or talking about their sexuality which may be being informed or shaped by abuse, which is. They have been advised that a child declaring themselves NB or presumably Ace (even where their parents do not know) is not a safeguarding issue and requires no response, recording or disclosure. I think this puts Leaders in a very difficult position and some of these children will be at risk of harm.

Why would a child saying that they feel they might be asexual a safeguarding issue?

Replace asexual with homosexual in what you've written above and you'll see how bigoted this sounds.

Asexuality is an orientation. It is not the result of trauma or abuse.

Guides used to support PHSE in schools; what changed to make them think they are qualified to tackle the subject?

www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/blogs/lets-end-sexual-harassment-in-schools/

We are back to blurring the lines. Should unqualified adults be talking about sex to children at all? Is there an issue if a child is thought to be unusually or inappropriately knowledgeable about sex?

@TeamRex

"vinsurvin *@MrsOvertonsWindow* I'm sorry to break it to you, but children do have sexual relationships....It's an unfortunate truth that children are having sex ... while still at primary school. ... Pretending this isn't happening isn't going to help matters."

Um, what?

Sexual activity in primary school is far more common than you might think. I don't like it either, but it's true. Pretending it's not, and refusing to educate children about sex until we as a society feel it's appropriate to do so, risks putting children at harm.

It's also important to point out that there is a wide age range in youth activities that there isn't in schools. A lesson aimed at a single year group won't be suitable for a guide group, or a cub pack, or any similar children's activity.

A 14 year old telling a 10 year old about sex and relationships is as inappropriate as an 18 year old telling a 13 year old - and those are the age ranges we are talking about here.

I won't comment on again on unqualified adults who discuss this with 10 year olds as it would probably get me deleted .

Ill informed adults can do more harm than good, whatever their intentions.
The fact that adults think they are qualified to take on this role is a red flag and a safeguarding issue imo.

How can you acknowledge that sexual assults happen In schools yet then get outraged at the notion that trauma could be a reason behind some cases of a lack.of connection and sexual desire?

We have already explained how it's being physically inflicted on some children through drugs.

So that in itself shows its not necessarily outright the sexuality in all cases .

I can't see the problem for teenagers to decide they are asexual. It's not as if they can't change their minds, and I can think of few things more helpful for safeguarding than for a teenage girl to have a handy and socially acceptable label to append to explain disinterest in sexual involvement before she's ready. I do think kids should also be told that we all change and grow and morph through our lives, and a label that fits at one stage may not at others, though - I think that should be taught as a huge part of SRE generally, in fact.

As to premature sexualisation... it's a red flag. If between same ages kids, it's apparently often because some kids have been groomed and abused by adults, and then translate that to peers. It's not normal/the average for primary aged kids to be having sex, and in almost all cases it would translate to a safeguarding failure of some sort. The average age across the population for first intercourse is around 18. Those having sex in their primary years will be pretty serious outliers, and in many cases, victims of CSA.

the average age of puberty is getting younger and younger in Western society which means sexual feelings are kicking in younger and younger.

No. We had a very informative thread about this earlier in the year. This was a misconception based on the fact that during the Industrial Revolution the age of puberty rose because of widespread malnutrition and overcrowded living conditions causing illness and slowing down growth. Historical evidence now suggests that before the onset of the IR the age at which puberty began was much what it is now.

Sexual activity in primary school is far more common than you might think. I don't like it either, but it's true. Pretending it's not, and refusing to educate children about sex until we as a society feel it's appropriate to do so, risks putting children at harm.

Children having sex at primary school age are being sexually abused. This is not a 'they're gonna do it anyway so they might as well be fully educated' scenario you are talking about there, it sexual abuse.

We are not 'risking putting children at harm', they are already at harm if they are having sex at primary school age.

Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you?

@Reptar

Ill informed adults can do more harm than good, whatever their intentions. The fact that adults think they are qualified to take on this role is a red flag and a safeguarding issue imo.

Agreed. RSE is monitored, trained and overseen. There's government guidelines, LA support, and school policies. Schools have to discuss it with parents, and there's a legal right to withdraw your child from the lessons.

This is a lot more amateur. Amateurs, even very well meaning, can cause real harm.

I thought it was well-established that sexual behaviour in a child below the age of puberty, as almost all primary aged children will be, was a strong indicator of abuse and should lead to a safeguarding referral.

@Whatwouldscullydo

There can also be medical reasons for a lack of connection with people , lack of a sex drive in adults etc

Depression , brain tumors, having your puberty blocked by powerful drugs.

Whereas there is no doubt that asexual people exist , perfectly healthy and happy, we can't ignore that assuming you are a sexual and potentially missing order health issues is not necessarily something we should be doing without question.

It's also really common at the moment for young girls (12 or 13) to identify as asexual when in reality they probably just haven't developed to the point of having sexual feelings yet.

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Sexual activity in primary school is far more common than you might think. I don't like it either, but it's true. Pretending it's not, and refusing to educate children about sex until we as a society feel it's appropriate to do so, risks putting children at harm.

Children having sex at primary school age are being sexually abused. This is not a 'they're gonna do it anyway so they might as well be fully educated' scenario you are talking about there, it sexual abuse.

We are not 'risking putting children at harm', they are already at harm if they are having sex at primary school age.

Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you?

There is nothing wrong with me. You are reading into my posts something that simply isn't there.

Children mature at very different ages. Some children become sexually curious at primary school, and some children engage in sexual behaviours at primary school.

I'm not saying that it's ok for children to be having sex at primary school. I'm saying it's not ok to pretend to children that sex doesn't exist and not to educate them about it until an arbitrary age when adults decide they are old enough to handle it. This is because if a child is having sexual feelings when they are in primary school, if they've not received any education about it, what are they going to do with those feelings? How might those feelings be expressed? Who might they end up hurting when they try and express those feelings? Sex education is important for this reason.

Yes early sexual behaviour can be as a result of trauma or abuse. But it can also be perfectly natural and normal depending on when a child goes through puberty.

Whatever the reason for sexual feelings or behaviours in younger children, pretending they don't exist and suggesting that younger children shouldn't be educated about sex, is harmful.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

I thought it was well-established that sexual behaviour in a child below the age of puberty, as almost all primary aged children will be, was a strong indicator of abuse and should lead to a safeguarding referral.

Absolutely it is.

But in primary school, many children go through puberty in Year 5 and 6.

So children in Years 5 and 6 can be experiencing non trauma related sexual feelings that may also lead to inappropriate sexual behaviour.

Whatever the reason, I would expect any teacher to flag up sexual behaviour in a child of that age. However not all of it will be trauma related and some of it will be down to a lack of understanding of how to process and deal with sexual feelings. Hence the need for education.

I'm not saying that it's ok for children to be having sex at primary school. I'm saying it's not ok to pretend to children that sex doesn't exist and not to educate them about it until an arbitrary age when adults decide they are old enough to handle it. This is because if a child is having sexual feelings when they are in primary school, if they've not received any education about it, what are they going to do with those feelings? How might those feelings be expressed? Who might they end up hurting when they try and express those feelings? Sex education is important for this reason.

Buy asexuality is an absence of sexual feelings, so why would kids need to know about it anyway? Surely you don't really need to even know about asexuality until, well, adulthood really when you might start wondering why you have never fancied anyone? Certainly not at primary school where is completely normal not to have any sexual feelings?

Regardless of stages of puberty a child is still a child.

No ones afraid to talk to and educte their children about sex. With a heavy focus on consent boundaries and what's appropriate amd legal behaviour.

These children don't exist to validate the.lives of adults. And by applying that label to what indeed could be a response to trauma and any child engaging in sexual activities under the age if 16 is being abused! ,.you risk them assuming that their perfectly rational feelings to said trauma is indeed a sexuakity and therfore does not need any form.of investigation. All to.avoid upsetting asexual adults.

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Why are you so upset about the idea of children being taught about asexuality as a sexual orientation?

Do you object to your child being taught about homosexuality in school?

My kids know that some men go out with and marry men, and some women go out with and marry women. There is no sexual element to it, past what kids of their age know about people living together, having babies etc.

I'm not going to say to my daughter, 'oh you don't want to get married, maybe you're asexual'. She wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about, I would be putting ideas onto her that she is not equipped to understand. Why would I be needing to talk about sexual attraction to her when she is 10?

I suppose the point is you've told her some men go out with and marry men, some women go out with and marry women, she will be surrounded with evidence that the majority of adult people "go out with and marry" people of the opposite sex, so telling her some people aren't interested at all is hardly difficult.

Are you in the UK? We do educate children at primary school about sex. At a basic, age appropriate level.

Any sexualised behaviour at that age should definitely be reported asa safe-guarding issue.

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

I'm not saying that it's ok for children to be having sex at primary school. I'm saying it's not ok to pretend to children that sex doesn't exist and not to educate them about it until an arbitrary age when adults decide they are old enough to handle it. This is because if a child is having sexual feelings when they are in primary school, if they've not received any education about it, what are they going to do with those feelings? How might those feelings be expressed? Who might they end up hurting when they try and express those feelings? Sex education is important for this reason.

Buy asexuality is an absence of sexual feelings, so why would kids need to know about it anyway? Surely you don't really need to even know about asexuality until, well, adulthood really when you might start wondering why you have never fancied anyone? Certainly not at primary school where is completely normal not to have any sexual feelings?

I'm confused as to why you're confused by this.

We teach children about different sexual orientations as part of helping them to understand the world around us and how different people live their lives.

As such, at school, we teach children that some people have two mummies or two daddies, because not everyone is heterosexual.

As part of that, we can also teach them that some people never have any sexual feelings at all, and that's ok.

It's simply part of educating them about how the world works and how different people fit into the world.

It also means as they grow up and start to experience (or not experience, in my case) sexual feelings, they can understand and interpret their feelings within the frameworks of sexuality they have learned about.

Again, if you replace asexuality with homosexuality in what you've written, hopefully you can understand why what you've said is troublesome. If we didn't teach kids about homosexuality, people who are homosexual would just have to 'figure it out' when they got to adulthood. By then they might already have experienced a lot of pain and trauma in trying to fit themselves into a society where they didn't feel they belonged. Same for asexual people. Knowing it exists means that, as you grow up, if you don't start to experience sexual feelings, you'll know that's normal and ok too. Rather than thinking you're a freak of nature.

I hope that explains things for you.

Girl guiding leader here, didn't even know anything about it and wouldn't bring it into my meetings as not my place to start those discussions and personally believe they are too young (5-10 for my units) BUT it is surprising some of the subjects that the girls instigate conversations in.

I think we need to be careful not to let kids label themselves.

The teenage years are mostly when kids discover their sexuality, and sexual orientation, after some experimenting.

This drive for labelling can be harmful - humans like belonging to a tribe, but changing tribes can be difficult, sometimes dangerous.

But going back to the Facebook post on GG - there are some enthusiastic responses there from young GG leaders who seem to be enjoying the "validation" of being recognised as Ace/Aro, and I'm not sure that's a good idea.

@TeamRex

Are you in the UK? We do educate children at primary school about sex. At a basic, age appropriate level.

Any sexualised behaviour at that age should definitely be reported asa safe-guarding issue.

Yes I am in the UK, and yes I do know this. I am responding to some people on this thread who seem to think that educating any primary school aged children about sex is horrific.

I agree and have already said several times that I know that any sexualised behaviour at this age should be reported. However I don't agree it is always down to trauma.