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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Ace week" in girl guiding.

392 replies

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 11:33

What fresh hell....

Thankfully a number of posters really not impressed. Worrying number think it's entirely appropriate Hmm

https://www.facebook.com/girlguidinguk/photos/a.398392309681/10158689026444682/?type=3

But it was worth reading it to find this excellent analysis of "Ace" identity and issues around it.

bryndisb.substack.com/p/asexuality-queering-the-mundane

OP posts:
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7
Datun · 01/11/2021 14:04

@TedImgoingmad

Hot off the press, my county has just announced the following (names removed):

New Appointments

[WWWW] - Inclusion Adviser heading up the new extended Inclusions team. [WWWW] is passionate about helping everyone in Guiding feel welcome and have a sense of belonging. As Lead Inclusion Adviser, [WWWW] and the team will be able to support our members to be fully inclusive and break down barriers.

[XXXX]'s role has been renamed to Inclusion Adviser - Disabilities to reflect her specialism

[YYYY] - Inclusion Adviser - LGBTQ+ (from 2 November 2021)

Nobody dedicated to looking after the girls from ethnic minority backgrounds.

Oh, and on the County Team list, nobody is listed in charge of safeguarding - it's an empty appointment.

[YYYY] has a very unusual name. There's a person with said name with a Pinterest board sporting such delights as:

  • Ur cordially invited to fuck me senseless ;)

  • Please use he/they pronouns

  • One day I'm gonna hurt you. I promise

  • I just punched shit

Obviously, this could coincidentally be a totally different person with the same highly unusual name as the GGUK appointee.

Fucking hell. And upfront about breaking down barriers.
Reptar · 01/11/2021 14:08

@TedImgoingmad Archive that Pinterest page straight away.

RepentMotherfucker · 01/11/2021 14:08

@TedImgoingmad

Hot off the press, my county has just announced the following (names removed):

New Appointments

[WWWW] - Inclusion Adviser heading up the new extended Inclusions team. [WWWW] is passionate about helping everyone in Guiding feel welcome and have a sense of belonging. As Lead Inclusion Adviser, [WWWW] and the team will be able to support our members to be fully inclusive and break down barriers.

[XXXX]'s role has been renamed to Inclusion Adviser - Disabilities to reflect her specialism

[YYYY] - Inclusion Adviser - LGBTQ+ (from 2 November 2021)

Nobody dedicated to looking after the girls from ethnic minority backgrounds.

Oh, and on the County Team list, nobody is listed in charge of safeguarding - it's an empty appointment.

[YYYY] has a very unusual name. There's a person with said name with a Pinterest board sporting such delights as:

  • Ur cordially invited to fuck me senseless ;)

  • Please use he/they pronouns

  • One day I'm gonna hurt you. I promise

  • I just punched shit

Obviously, this could coincidentally be a totally different person with the same highly unusual name as the GGUK appointee.

Well if it's the same person that's a huge issue. You need to try to find out because a person like that shouldn't be anywhere near children. Can we help you?
TedImgoingmad · 01/11/2021 14:11

Yes, I thought that was interesting terminology. Breaking barriers, rather than building up the confidence of the guides involved, and that of the leaders who might struggle to deal with their complex needs.

thirdfiddle · 01/11/2021 14:12

What I mean is, being judged by male standards, and think there is something wrong with them.

I hadn't thought of that. Are you asexual as the new are you frigid. Coupled with a suggestion that if you want romantic relationships and are asexual, one way forward is to have sexual interactions when you don't physically desire them. To young people who may just not be ready for sexual activity, either at all or in any given relationship. That's potentially problematic isn't it.

TedImgoingmad · 01/11/2021 15:48

I've made enquiries and hopefully archived the page.

Bordois · 01/11/2021 17:10

And yet, asexual people are supposed to shut up and hide away because their existence can apparently be used to further the medicalisation of gender non-conformity, it may be a foil for paedophilia, they may be objectified and fetishised as an object of desire, it is part of a woke agenda - what else from this thread?

Literally the whole point of safeguarding is to point out the ways that things can be twisted by someone to take advantage of a vulnerable person.

The issue in this case is that the concept of asexuality is being twisted to imply that if you don't enjoy sex, its OK you're probably just asexual. This can and will, be used by adults to take advantage of young children.

Your problem should be with the people who exploit and co-opt other peoples experiences rather than the people pointing out the exploitation.

Its the latest in a long line of this appropriation taking place, taking an established concept and then taking it over bit by bit and then forcing out the actual people it applied to in the first place.

Happened to transsexuals, lesbians and now asexuality. They are trying similar with intersex but are getting pushback on that so far.

RepentMotherfucker · 01/11/2021 17:11

@TedImgoingmad

I've made enquiries and hopefully archived the page.
Good.

Let FWR know if you need help with a safeguarding process though? It needn't be outing for you. That person at the very least needs a conversation about appropriate social media use. Although I would have thought that highly sexualised SM would make them unsuitable as being a volunteer tbh.

MumofAceDD · 01/11/2021 17:20

@WarriorN

Patriarchal power play, tis the women's place to constant doubt herself and humbly make sure she's serving everyone else and keeping to her spot.

Was always rather pissed off that my first brownie badge was making a cup of tea of others. Would have much preferred firelighting. 🔥

If you don’t think it is women’s place to constantly doubt herself and make sure she is keeping to her spot, then is it not better that young women (and I don’t mean children) learn that asexuality is a thing? And feel confident to live and express themselves as that if that is meaningful to them?

I just mentioned to my daughter the furore about the GG tweet, and she said, that was daft, she would have felt so much better age 14 knowing it was a thing. So 🤷🏻‍♀️

And personally, yes, I agree that inclusivity should indeed be inclusive. Lesbians should be visible, because 14 year olds might equally feel much better knowing that was a thing too and accepted by their elders. If they were reading the tweets and it had been tweeted. But we don’t get more inclusive with the level of negativity and vitriol directed at one group just because the other was not mentioned. It just gets divisive.

Okay, I am done discussing it anyway. All the best

TedImgoingmad · 01/11/2021 17:27

Just as an example of GGUK's policy changes possibly being influenced by funding opportunities: They have teamed up (second year running I think) with Children in Need, which, as we know, is run by the BBC, which is run by Stonewall. I think it was mentioned on another thread that CIN will only pay out to charities that fulfil their tick-box "inclusion"criteria.

www.girlguiding.org.uk/get-involved/fundraise-for-us/girlguiding-bbc-children-in-need/

TedImgoingmad · 01/11/2021 17:29

Let FWR know if you need help with a safeguarding process though?

Will do @RepentMotherfucker

PumpkinGin · 01/11/2021 17:59

@MumofAceDD

You sound like a really kind person who loves your daughter dearly and who desperately wants to help other girls like her. It would have been amazing for her if she could have had that information when she was 14. However, that information should have come from PSHE - or from you. If it wasn’t covered in school and she was anxious about something sex-related, you could have helped. And you would have - if this information had been available to you. It wasn’t.

Today this information is available and PSHE together with the parents can help our children. I have read up on this now (my oldest is 10 and in a single sex school, so hasn’t been relevant) and I assure you, my children will be told that any sexuality is normal. My oldest already knows about single sex parents. There is a child in the class with two dads and my oldest finds this completely normal. I am completely relaxed and will support my children in whatever sexuality they realise that they have.

But the point for me is that it is my job, as a mum, to do this. Even if the GG have the best intentions, there may be inappropriate conversations if sex is normalised as a topic. One mum said the GG discussed female sexuality with her DD aged 10. This will erode boundaries. There may be predators evading the vetting procedures.

And where do we draw the line at conversations around sexuality? Can the PE teacher discuss this? The piano teacher? The librarian?

The more society normalises sex conversations, the less we can spot red flags. The less likely teachers will be able to spot abused children.

The discussions around sex and sexual orientations has come a long way. Parents know more today than they did. And they are responsible for having these conversations with their children. And well meaning adults need to trust us parents to have these conversations with our children.

MumofAceDD · 01/11/2021 18:23

The one cultural reference I had towards asexuality before my DD told me about herself was an article I read in the newspaper about it in the kind of life and style section (I do not remember which paper). If I had seen a tweet about say, ace week, from any organisation I followed (not on Twitter anymore) or her high school (which did have an LGBT youth group), or had more awareness, I might have been better able to not mention, for example, that I would like grandchildren (I was brought up by someone who thought getting pregnant was the end of the world, so my narrative was more about reassuring her that I would support her if that ever happened and she was the best thing to ever happen) or any of the things which casually assumed a future which involves relationships and sex.

Asexuality was just not on my radar. So whatever I discussed about sex was about relationships, sex and importantly, consent. Because the general point about not feeling like you have to have sex comes under consent, for everyone.

So, I don’t think the information is out there and I certainly don’t think asexuality is understood, really (as evidenced by this thread). So yes, while I agree that there is a place and time for those conversations, I don’t agree that parents always have the information they need. I am not saying this information should come in the form of tweets from GG, but it needs to feed through somehow.
I am curious to know whether it is in the SRE curriculum now where I am.

FloralBunting · 01/11/2021 18:49

The problem with the current iteration of 'ace awareness' is not the idea of making 'Asexuality' something people are aware of as a possibility, it's the 'Ace-spectrum' which takes the idea of someone not feeling sexual desire (which may be a health issue, or may simply be because they just don't feel it, this is no doubt a minority, but I don't think it has to be a problem) and stretches the meaning beyond all reason into emcompassing all kinds of human relationship interactions and feelings. Lesbian isn't a spectrum. Heterosexual isn't a spectrum. Bisexuality is the only one that could be reasonably argued on a spectrum, but again, it's still going to be a 'yes or no' proposition when it comes to individual attraction.

So, I've got no problem accepting that some people just have no interest in sexual engagement, and that a big shrug of disinterest exists where other people might have a libido. It's when I am told that it is a specific point on the asexuality spectrum to not feel sexual desire until you know someone well, or that you don't feel sexual desire but are perfectly happy to engage in sexual activity and even orgasm, that I become a massive skeptic about it all.

At that stage, you're just describing the wide variety of human sexual behaviour, which is not 'an orientation'. I am a lesbian, and was able to engage in heterosexual activity for many years while feeling no desire. It was psychologically unhealthy human sexual behaviour that I needed to overcome and change, not 'an orientation' that needed a flag and label.

What drives me nuts about all this is that the endless navel-gazing and 'raising awareness' is billed as education, and all it does is muddy the water and mask really unhelpful behaviour. No one should feel pressured or coerced into sexual activity or pairing off. Not a heterosexual woman or man, a bisexual person, a lesbian, a gay man, or a person who has no sexual desire. No extra labels, extensive excuses or communties needed.

We need widespread enthusiastic consent teaching. I see it mentioned sometimes, but I don't think it's actually a thing, and that's pissing me off. My kids and I are constantly referencing the 'cup of tea?' analogy. It's ok to say no because you don't want to and never want to. That's the issue.

PeterPomegranate · 01/11/2021 20:51

@FloralBunting - I found that a helpful post.

And I agree that consent is where there should be more focus. Enthusiastic consent. That’s the bar.

HeddaAga · 01/11/2021 21:06

you're just describing the wide variety of human sexual behaviour, which is not 'an orientation'

Well this is it isn't it.

ScreamingMeMe · 01/11/2021 21:28

It's in The Times (sorry, can't do share tokens on my phone).

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f8da2e40-3a90-11ec-9bef-aa3112940013?shareToken=5f97f5a59b1edba3122e97703a65a0ac

ShadesOfMagenta · 01/11/2021 22:07

This is going to be covered on LBC Tom Swarbrick 10pm - 1am Mon night - just heard it trailed at the start of the program!!

@KatieAlcock

ShadesOfMagenta · 01/11/2021 22:08

‘This’ being Girl Guides celebrating ace/asexuality etc

ShadesOfMagenta · 01/11/2021 23:05

It’s going to be after midnight so I’ll have to listen on catch up tomorrow.

FemaleAndLearning · 01/11/2021 23:27

MumofAceDd
I didn't see the tweet, which may have been aimed at adults, but I did see their public Facebook page which was aimed at the whole community including the general public. So aimed at 13 years plus.

What decisions adults take and what they want to call themselves is fine but I take issue with their post as it is aimed at their girl followers.

Like other posters have said the definition of asexuality is so broad because, I asumme, it is personal to each individual. I also agree with other posters that it is really difficult to talk about asexuality without discussing the act of sex, not something you do when discussing relationships based on love as opposed to the act of sex to make babies. Yes that is the norm presented. I understand your daughter felt she was strange so perhaps we do need to mention that some people decide to be on their own just like some decide not to have children.

I talked to my children about sex in
terms of baby making long before other parents I knew. However I was forced to explain that people have sex for pleasure too not just for making babies as she was sexualised by pornographic magazines that she had been allowed to view at her dad's house.
It is this kind of red flag that posters are talking about. These red flags would be missed. I'm not articulating this very well but I hope you see my point.

WarriorN · 02/11/2021 05:35

Excellent post floral. You raise more key points around subtle issues with the label, namely that some engage in sexual behaviour because they think they should, to fit in, especially young women for whom it's easier to "lie back and think of England," without feeling a great deal of attraction. Which is possibly why theres the add on that ace people have sex? Young Women and teen girls are far more prone the impact of media sources and peer pressure.

It concerns me that as you say, it's normalised, or even celebrated.

And absolutely bang on about enthusiastic consent.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 02/11/2021 05:36

I'm really sorry your daughter was treated like that by her father Female.

OP posts:
PumpkinGin · 02/11/2021 06:14

female, I am very sorry about what your daughter went through as well. Flowers My worst nightmare is that my children would be sexualised or abused.

It sounds like you dealt with it very well.

MeganKi · 02/11/2021 07:04

As an asexual person myself I'm very disappointed by some of the posts on this thread.

There seems to be a lot of conflating of talking about asexuality, and talking about sex, as in the act of sexual intercourse. These aren't the same at all. I of course completely agree that teaching about the latter should be done only by parents or by teachers with appropriate safeguarding, but its perfectly possible to say to even a young child "some people like men, some people like women, some people like both, some people like none". In my opinion certainly by age 14 a girl (or boy) should already have been taught atleast this.

Honestly the conflation of teaching about asexuality and teaching about sexual acts has the same logic to it that stopped for so many years teaching that gay people exist - that teaching a child that some men like other men, or that some women like other women, would somehow have to involve teaching them about the details of gay sex at an inappropriate age, or that this would somehow influence straight kids into identifying as gay. Please let's not make the same mistake again for this generation of ace people.

I wish there had been support for ace people like this when I was younger. I'm 23 now, but when I was younger there was absolutely nothing to tell me that asexuality even existed. I remember actually reading something about asexuality, maybe on tumblr or someplace, when I was around 12 years old (not an unusual age for aces to figure out our orientation), but since there wasn't family, friends or teachers there to back this up I didn't believe it was real. I spent years getting pressured to be attracted to men, and I didn't properly acknowledge myself as ace till I went to university and met people from the LGBT+ club when I was 19.

There's a lot of misconceptions and misinformation about asexuality on this thread, I would recommend to seek out ace websites and resources that will address some of these myths. But to address a couple of the common ones here:

"Ace people have hormone imbalances / are that way because of abuse" - these are some of the most harmful myths about asexuality, echoing the old ideas that gay people are mentally ill or are gay because of suffering CSA.

Hormones can ofcourse affect sex drive, but I think it would be extremely unlikely for someone to conclude they're asexual - an inborn sexual orientation - because of this. In my time in the ace community, a vast majority of people have been ace as long as they have been aware of their sexuality. Atleast in most circumstances, it's the way we are born just like people are born gay, Bi or straight, not a medical issue or a result of trauma.

"Ace people don't face any issues" - while certainly almost no ace person would compare our struggle to the much greater one of gay and Bi people, we live in a society where wanting and having (heterosexual) sex and relationships is not only normalised, but often pressured, and this creates a lot of problems for ace people in our lives.

"Why would an ace person have sex?" - I understand this can be a complicated topic to understand, which may contribute to some of the ideas upthread that there's some bad agenda behind people saying this. In reality though, within the ace community it's generally agreed that there are various reasons why an ace person might consensually have sex. This could include, for example, being in a relationship with a non-ace person and wanting to feel close to them even in the absence of sexual attraction, or ace people who have a libido (many do; its not the same thing as sexual attraction). Again, there's a lot of resources written by ace people explaining the nuances of this so I would recommend searching for them.