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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Ace week" in girl guiding.

392 replies

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 11:33

What fresh hell....

Thankfully a number of posters really not impressed. Worrying number think it's entirely appropriate Hmm

https://www.facebook.com/girlguidinguk/photos/a.398392309681/10158689026444682/?type=3

But it was worth reading it to find this excellent analysis of "Ace" identity and issues around it.

bryndisb.substack.com/p/asexuality-queering-the-mundane

OP posts:
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Fetarabbit · 02/11/2021 07:10

The issue for me is more whether girl guides is the appropriate place and forum for any adults to be speaking and 'educating' about sexual preferences of any kind. There is no escape from bombardment for children everywhere about labels, and it's not about raising awareness and tolerance it's feels beyond that now.

TeamRex · 02/11/2021 07:21

I don't see how most asexual people can realise they are asexual aged 12, because most children will have had zero sexual experiences at that age, are mostly prepubescent and therefore won't be experiencing sexual desire.

Secondly "or ace people who have a libido (many do; its not the same thing as sexual attraction).".
What? If a person has a libido that isn't satisfied by masturbation and therefore they have sex with others then that person is not asexual.

I am quite happy that children should be taught that relationships are not compulsory and should only be entered into freely, but this garbled nonsense can't be helpful.

Rightsraptor · 02/11/2021 07:24

I think it's too early in the day for me to work out what MeganKi's 'ace people who have a libido' could mean.

NotBadConsidering · 02/11/2021 07:26

but its perfectly possible to say to even a young child "some people like men, some people like women, some people like both, some people like none". In my opinion certainly by age 14 a girl (or boy) should already have been taught atleast this.

So a prepubertal child replies with “I don’t like anyone, does that make me asexual?”

What’s your answer?

Terfydactyl · 02/11/2021 07:35

So, I don’t think the informationisout there and I certainly don’t think asexuality is understood, really (as evidenced by this thread

Agreed. Even in this thread there are at least 3 versions of what ace is.
So can someone get together with others and hash out some kind of agreement on what ace is?

Whilst we are all on here confused because my interpretation is ace means no desire for sex at all. Another interpretation is sex all the time but no desire for it, and other interpretations are available. Children are out there being talked to about inappropriate stuff.

If there was an agreement and an actual definition then parents could just say this, no need to get other adults involved.

Rightsraptor · 02/11/2021 07:42

I also have a problem with the verb to like in this context.

When I tried explaining being gay to my own young child by saying 'some men like other men and some women like other women', 'like' wasn't understood in any sexual way. Of course it wasn't, why would it be when the child's concept of such things was so very limited? The child thought I meant friendships.

Fetarabbit · 02/11/2021 07:44

So can someone get together with others and hash out some kind of agreement on what ace is?

I doubt it, many definitions exist and many people shoehorn themselves in- when really it should be fairly simple.

KittenKong · 02/11/2021 08:08

You send your child to a club to learn skills, have fun and get away from social media, tv, boys... not to have another adult discuss sexuality with them. Did the parents agree to this? The drama when religion is mentioned!

If the topic comes up - so a leader has a girlfriend, is is pregnant, whatever - let the kids ask any questions, answer if appropriate/ you feel comfortable, and move on.

Why the need to make it an ‘education opportunity’ when the kids should be making bonfire party decorations, doing charity events, camping...

PumpkinGin · 02/11/2021 08:17

This article about asexuality is quite helpful.

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/327272#spectrums

It shows that you have the traditional ace (lack of sexual attraction and no sex) but also the demisexual (only sexual attraction with a close bond), aromantic (doesn’t feel romantic attraction), grey sexual or grey romantic (seems somewhere between sexual and asexual). We also need to add the posters who “get horny and have lots of sex sex and relationships” as I am not quite clear where they fit.

Now, obviously this has evolved from the dictionary definition which is much less sophisticated.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/asexual

To complicate things. The “traditional” asexual (no sexual attraction and does not form relationships) is manifesting very similar to “inhibited sexual desire” which is a physical and/or mental health condition and needs investigation as it can be serious.

www.healthline.com/health/inhibited-sexual-desire

@MeganKi I have realised that I am demisexual so I hope that you recognise that I also can inform about this topic (as I fall under the asexual umbrella)

My concerns remain that it is quite complicated initially (I am now quite clear about it). Therefore it is definitely not suitable to communicate to very young children.

And as it concerns sex, it should only be discussed by parents or PSHE under safeguarding conditions.

NotBadConsidering · 02/11/2021 08:55

It shows that you have the traditional ace (lack of sexual attraction and no sex) but also the demisexual (only sexual attraction with a close bond), aromantic (doesn’t feel romantic attraction), grey sexual or grey romantic (seems somewhere between sexual and asexual). We also need to add the posters who “get horny and have lots of sex sex and relationships” as I am not quite clear where they fit.

People. They all fit into the people category. None of these are a sexuality. They are people with different personalities and preferences.

KittenKong · 02/11/2021 09:05

Of the ‘adults’ can’t put their finger on a definition, how the heck are they supposed to ‘educate’ our kids on it? Just no thanks. Stock to crafts, having fun and just being girls.

PumpkinGin · 02/11/2021 09:11

For some people these labels are incredibly important and they feel that having this label and having other people aware of it changes your life.

I didn’t realise that I had a label until I educated myself. I was just the person who never had casual sex. A label would have done very little for me as I was raised to know that “NO” was the default.

I respect other people’s journeys and whatever they need to do to feel better.

But I do not want children sexualised to early. I do not want compromises in safeguarding. I do not want any red flags to be missed. And I do not want anything too complex being told to my young children- they will misunderstand it. My children are not there to validate adults or to make them feel better.

I understand that some posters want to help the child they were. That isn’t possible. But today’s asexual children can be helped by their own parents or school PSHE. As can children of other sexual orientations. Random adults need to step away.

NewlyGranny · 02/11/2021 09:24

"Some people like men, some people like women, some people like both and some people like none,"

And some people are still children and don't yet know what they're going to like, though they might be getting clues to their feelings!

Why don't we simply explain to children that just as they don't yet know how tall they're going to be when they finish growing, they don't yet know what their grown up feelings are going to be, either? And that they don't need to worry about labelling themselves just yet if at all?

I do anticipate that in this pornsick age when boys and girls are often exposed to images that normalise sexual practices that involve women being degraded, injured and frightened, there will be girls and young women who want nothing to do with sex. Why would you if that's what you've seen? Asexuality could look like another refuge.

Let's teach children about respectful, loving relationships of all sorts as schools are supposed to do, and teach bodily autonomy as the beacon enthusiastic consent as the marker?

NecessaryScene · 02/11/2021 09:39

As surface-level things, like definitions of terms, become less and less clear, the underlying patterns become more obvious.

twitter.com/Slatzism/status/1453456960846708744

"Ace week" in girl guiding.
FloralBunting · 02/11/2021 10:27

"Ace people don't face any issues" - while certainly almost no ace person would compare our struggle to the much greater one of gay and Bi people, we live in a society where wanting and having (heterosexual) sex and relationships is not only normalised, but often pressured, and this creates a lot of problems for ace people in our lives.

I've asked this a long while ago on a thread about asexuality, and in a number of other places, and I've read ace articles and websites, but could you elucidate what specific problems ace people experience that other people who are just single, for example, don't? I'm genuinely not trying to be snarky, but you've managed to 'not compare' your struggles as an ace person to what lesbian, gay or bi people might face but have still linked the two in your statement. I still don't understand what it is that marks out oppression of Aces that's any different from the stuff single people of any orientation deal with. Which undoubtedly can be irritating sometimes, but...

Franca123 · 02/11/2021 10:46

Indeed, I was talking to my straight partner about the pressure he got from his religiously conservatives parents to marry and have children. He has now married and had children but he has done so on his own terms which took gumption and resilience to achieve. Shouldn't he be included under the asexual umbrella too?

DuckDuckNo · 02/11/2021 11:03

I didn’t realise that I had a label until I educated myself.

And is the aim now to educate all the children so they can have labels too? Why is that a useful activity in girl guides?

FWIW none of the ACE definitions on this thread or in the articles mentioned on this thread are similar to my ACE-identifying friend's explanation. So I guess there's as many ways to be ACE as there are ACE people. I wonder..

FemaleAndLearning · 02/11/2021 11:13

This is all so confusing when the word no or the phrase mind your own business will seem to suffice.

PumpkinGin · 02/11/2021 11:17

I am very happy to be understanding of any label and I also respect people and hope they feel validated by that.

But my children are not a validation tool. And I worry about safeguarding. And these discussions should not happen in GG.

KittenKong · 02/11/2021 11:21

When you work with children there are some things/topics that if a child brings it up, a red light goes off in your head.

Sexuality is one of these things. The GG is not there to educate children on such issues. Who is driving this? There must be someone at HQ who is suggesting these themes?

Datun · 02/11/2021 11:57

@MeganKi

As an asexual person myself I'm very disappointed by some of the posts on this thread.

There seems to be a lot of conflating of talking about asexuality, and talking about sex, as in the act of sexual intercourse. These aren't the same at all. I of course completely agree that teaching about the latter should be done only by parents or by teachers with appropriate safeguarding, but its perfectly possible to say to even a young child "some people like men, some people like women, some people like both, some people like none". In my opinion certainly by age 14 a girl (or boy) should already have been taught atleast this.

Honestly the conflation of teaching about asexuality and teaching about sexual acts has the same logic to it that stopped for so many years teaching that gay people exist - that teaching a child that some men like other men, or that some women like other women, would somehow have to involve teaching them about the details of gay sex at an inappropriate age, or that this would somehow influence straight kids into identifying as gay. Please let's not make the same mistake again for this generation of ace people.

I wish there had been support for ace people like this when I was younger. I'm 23 now, but when I was younger there was absolutely nothing to tell me that asexuality even existed. I remember actually reading something about asexuality, maybe on tumblr or someplace, when I was around 12 years old (not an unusual age for aces to figure out our orientation), but since there wasn't family, friends or teachers there to back this up I didn't believe it was real. I spent years getting pressured to be attracted to men, and I didn't properly acknowledge myself as ace till I went to university and met people from the LGBT+ club when I was 19.

There's a lot of misconceptions and misinformation about asexuality on this thread, I would recommend to seek out ace websites and resources that will address some of these myths. But to address a couple of the common ones here:

"Ace people have hormone imbalances / are that way because of abuse" - these are some of the most harmful myths about asexuality, echoing the old ideas that gay people are mentally ill or are gay because of suffering CSA.

Hormones can ofcourse affect sex drive, but I think it would be extremely unlikely for someone to conclude they're asexual - an inborn sexual orientation - because of this. In my time in the ace community, a vast majority of people have been ace as long as they have been aware of their sexuality. Atleast in most circumstances, it's the way we are born just like people are born gay, Bi or straight, not a medical issue or a result of trauma.

"Ace people don't face any issues" - while certainly almost no ace person would compare our struggle to the much greater one of gay and Bi people, we live in a society where wanting and having (heterosexual) sex and relationships is not only normalised, but often pressured, and this creates a lot of problems for ace people in our lives.

"Why would an ace person have sex?" - I understand this can be a complicated topic to understand, which may contribute to some of the ideas upthread that there's some bad agenda behind people saying this. In reality though, within the ace community it's generally agreed that there are various reasons why an ace person might consensually have sex. This could include, for example, being in a relationship with a non-ace person and wanting to feel close to them even in the absence of sexual attraction, or ace people who have a libido (many do; its not the same thing as sexual attraction). Again, there's a lot of resources written by ace people explaining the nuances of this so I would recommend searching for them.

Thanks for your post. And I know it will prompt lots of questions.

I just want to check I have this right. You can have a libido, ie feel horny, and have this satisfied by a sexual partner. The only difference is you don't feel 'sexual attraction'. What is sexual attraction in this context?

Does it mean you're not aroused by looking at your partner. You want sex, it satisfies your libido, but visually there's no phwoar, as it were?

Because that is very common.

Often men will have a far more physical reaction to the visual than women. Hence the coy 'men's magazines'.

I wondering whether young women are judging themselves based on a more male sexuality? And feeling the need to label something which has been considered fairly mainstream up to now.

FrancescaContini · 02/11/2021 12:27

@KittenKong

When you work with children there are some things/topics that if a child brings it up, a red light goes off in your head.

Sexuality is one of these things. The GG is not there to educate children on such issues. Who is driving this? There must be someone at HQ who is suggesting these themes?

Yes, exactly. Couldn’t agree more. Just…WHY??
TedImgoingmad · 02/11/2021 12:35

Just…WHY??

Follow the money.

TheWeeDonkey · 02/11/2021 12:38

[quote NecessaryScene]As surface-level things, like definitions of terms, become less and less clear, the underlying patterns become more obvious.

twitter.com/Slatzism/status/1453456960846708744[/quote]
Oh wow 💡I honestly never thought of it this way before.

Helleofabore · 02/11/2021 12:42

@Fetarabbit

The issue for me is more whether girl guides is the appropriate place and forum for any adults to be speaking and 'educating' about sexual preferences of any kind. There is no escape from bombardment for children everywhere about labels, and it's not about raising awareness and tolerance it's feels beyond that now.
There is absolutely no need to be discussing this with 14 year old and younger past a 'it is normal to also not know as a person your age'.

This is adults putting their needs ahead of a child's.