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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Urging change of gender to be criminalised - The Times article

248 replies

ShrillSiren · 29/10/2021 00:23

I've just seen this article in The Times come up on Twitter.

Does anyone have a share token as this looks like huge news.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/urging-change-gender-criminalised-trans-rights-lgbtq-0vw7trcj2

OP posts:
Sexnotgender · 29/10/2021 19:59

[quote Imnobody4]Keira and TransgenderTrend have asked Jeremy Hyam QC for a legal opinion on the proposals. Very interesting.

www.transgendertrend.com/conversion-therapy-legal-opinion/[/quote]
Interesting.

We do need clarity urgently.

Elegaic · 29/10/2021 20:01

@Fieldofgreycorn

You don't think that could be construed as suggesting it's not 100% true?

Possibly. But I think they’re trying to make it clear that isn’t the case. I’m sure the last thing this government wants is more children being put on a medical pathway.

I don’t think the government want to encourage medical transition, but I do think they aren’t fully alive to the implications of this policy.
MrGHardy · 29/10/2021 20:03

This is really interesting. Is the motivation to stop people trying to make their trans kids cis, or the opposite. Or neither and just an idea to protect children, without a deeper motive behind it, as it also includes sexuality.

Marelle · 29/10/2021 20:21

They have already said schools are not allowed to teach anything that's not based on evidence. There is absolutely no evidence for a thing called gender identity
The NHS website refers to gender identity and says it can mean if your interests and social life don't fit with society's expectations of the gender you were assigned at birth, or if you have a strong sense of being the opposite gender to the one you were assigned at birth, or if you feel that you are in the "wrong body".

Some schools are using this as evidence that gender is something which is assigned at birth and citing it as a formal definition of gender identity. Because the NHS is a credible source, right?

www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/trans-teenager/

2319inprogress · 29/10/2021 20:24

@flyingbuttress43

The problem is that is attempting to address a meaningless concept i.e. gender identity. So, in essence you have garbage in, garbage out.

What a mess.

EXACTLY!

BloodinGutters all power to your elbow you're doing important work Flowers

seventyfits · 29/10/2021 20:27

How is it possible to trust the government when so many departments and quangos are still Stonewall Diversity Champions, according to the Sex Matters list? I'd like to see the government completely separating themselves from Stonewall's influence, or at least returning to a more standard relationship as with other lobby groups, before they attempt to pass legislation which has a direct impact on Stonewall's area of interest.

BloodinGutters · 29/10/2021 20:32

[quote Marelle]They have already said schools are not allowed to teach anything that's not based on evidence. There is absolutely no evidence for a thing called gender identity
The NHS website refers to gender identity and says it can mean if your interests and social life don't fit with society's expectations of the gender you were assigned at birth, or if you have a strong sense of being the opposite gender to the one you were assigned at birth, or if you feel that you are in the "wrong body".

Some schools are using this as evidence that gender is something which is assigned at birth and citing it as a formal definition of gender identity. Because the NHS is a credible source, right?

www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/trans-teenager/[/quote]
Exact problem I’m having with my kids school.

You got to wonder what’s wrong with them that they can’t come up with a definition that meets the guidance and have to put source responsibility to the nhs.

How can primary teachers of all people not teach basic facts? How can people trained in safeguarding abdicate responsibility to make life easier for themselves?

Utter fucking cowardice.

MrGHardy · 29/10/2021 20:40

The NHS website refers to gender identity and says it can mean if your interests and social life don't fit with society's expectations of the gender you were assigned at birth, or if you have a strong sense of being the opposite gender to the one you were assigned at birth, or if you feel that you are in the "wrong body".

So they are actually simply admitting gender ID = personality, and how it fits into stereotypes or not?

And they are casually grouping this nonsense together with actual dysphoria? That is a travesty that absolutely harms genuinely dysphoric people.

Datun · 29/10/2021 21:35

The NHS website refers to gender identity and says it can mean if your interests and social life don't fit with society's expectations of the gender you were assigned at birth

Ffs. This is insane.

What are the 'interests and social life'???

Girls who like football? Boys who like cooking? Girls who like girls? Boys who like boys?

It's unhinged nonsense. It's creating a problem out of normality.

Marelle · 29/10/2021 21:39

Girls who like football? Boys who like cooking?
Indeed. But if the NHS is condoning this stereotypical nonsense in writing then people will not only believe it but will also use it as a reference (aka a stick to beat others with). Because if the NHS says it then it must be medically true.

Sexnotgender · 29/10/2021 21:41

Interests and social life don’t fit with society’s expectations Confused

I’m a woman who loves whisky, played rugby for years, loves sport, can assemble a flat pack with the best of them. Am I really a man?

God this nonsense is depressing. How can actual grown adults talk such bollocks.

Leafstamp · 29/10/2021 21:44

Ive just seen this on Twitter, seems like a sensible action to take.

If you are unhappy that this government consultation assumes that we all have a “Gender Identity” & want them to to remove this bias & add “Do you have a Gender Identity” before the compulsory question below, email

[email protected]

to say so.

mobile.twitter.com/coccinellanovem/status/1454098377839456274

Datun · 29/10/2021 21:53

The NHS website refers to gender identity and says it can mean if your interests and social life don't fit with society's expectations of the gender you were assigned at birth

It's so dangerous. Almost everyone will be trans. And certainly, telling kids that if they step even a tiny bit outside pre subscribed, rigid, positively Victorian gender boxes, then it's their 'gender identity' talking. And we must legislate for it.

21stDentistryGirl · 29/10/2021 22:07

@Datun I can’t believe that’s on there. That is terrifying.

BloodinGutters · 29/10/2021 22:16

There’s definitely one section of the nhs pages on gender identity where they acknowledge that they use this language when talking to transgender people (assigned at birth terms etc) so comes across that they know it’s bs but make an allowance only when talking to trans people.

Don’t know if that’s on the pages these excerpts are from.

It’s still incredibly poor that they obfuscate the meanings in this way.

Bosky · 30/10/2021 01:49

The proposed legislation is NOTHING to do with "Conversion Therapy" of any description.

There is very little evidence that "gay conversion therapy" (in the usual sense) is a problem now - although it used to be in the past.

Discussion about "defining" gender identity is missing the point and purpose of this legislation. It does not matter how it is defined.

It is a Trojan Horse to get "gender identity", however it is defined, into UK Legislation as a backdoor to Self-ID.

Kate Harris of LGBA explains this in this video (linked to the point where Kate begins to talk about this issue):

There is a lot of discussion but these are the key points extracted:

Kate Harris:

We have a battle coming up about Conversion Therapy. Everybody knows this is a non-issue. Going to any gay or lesbian club, what's top of your mind it isn't Conversion Therapy.

There is no evidence to suggest this is a problem for gays and lesbians.

This is a Trojan Horse purely to get the two words "gender identity" on the statute book. This has been done successfully . . .

Bev Jackson:

But also it's one of the main issues in which words have been sort of turned upside down and inside out so that nobody knows what they're talking about.

Because of course the real issue of Conversion Therapy that that we're profoundly worried about is 15 year old girls who say that they're boys, who are put on a route to having their breasts removed and having beard growth and eventually becoming sterile.

I mean that is the, you know, the sterilisation of lesbians, that's real conversion therapy. But the way it's presented is actually upside down and back to front and 99% of the public do not understand this issue.

And you know, whenever I try to explain it, it takes me, literally I timed it, eight and a half minutes to explain it. Usually. If i've only got five minutes, it just doesn't work.

Helen Staniland:

Yes, I hadn't considered the angle of actually getting the term "gender identity" on the statute books. I think that's an incredibly important point which hadn't occurred to me but I think I think you're right, and that this is really dangerous, and that this has to be opposed, doesn't it? For that reason alone.

Bev Jackson:

Yes, it's unfortunate because Kate says this every single week and nobody really picks it up. Nobody really understands what's going on. It's really difficult to explain.

Kate Harris:

So our job over the next few months is the boring work, the writing lots of letters, the campaigning. Because if we make gender identity legally recognised, it opens the way to Self-ID, and that is what the Conversion Therapy Bills around the world are for.

It is nothing to do with gender, uh, conversion therapy.

So we have to we have to do the boring work of explaining this to people.

Gender identity is a feeling. Have that feeling, have that belief but it has no basis in law and no place on any statute book of any government with a brain.

It's important that we focus on our duty to lobby politicians, not to suck up to mad celebrities (Matt Lucas) who don't know what they're talking about.

Kate Harris:

But the question is, and I can see it popping up in the comments, "What can we do?"

Kate Harris:

What we can do is to stand up and speak. Challenge.

Every time somebody says something that you disagree with, challenge them. You can do it in a pleasant way, you can be polite, you can be perfectly civil, but without dialogue we're not going anywhere.

At the moment it feels almost as if we're in a state of war, and that's a frightening thing to say.

But the damage cannot go on for another generation, we have to stop it now. We've seen enough people, enough young people whose lives have been ruined. We've seen the detransitioners. If you care about this, speak up. Speak up at work, you have the Forstater judgment now behind you.

If in doubt, ask for help. You can contact us and we'll do our best.

But fundamentally the next big campaign is going to be around the Conversion Therapy Bill. So we're going to ask you to write letters, and
that's really boring.

Another thing that you can do, and this is very easy, is get a piece of paper and an envelope and write to Number 10. Whatever you think about Boris Johnson in other areas, if you please write to him and thank him for standing up for LGB Alliance. That will help us survive and our survival is not secure.

So anything you can do in terms of writing letters to Number 10 and getting ready for the Conversion Therapy Bill - and challenge, challenge, challenge. That's the way we win.

Graham Linehan:

Yes and also I would remind people that if you were asked at work to put your pronouns in your signature, you were being asked to go along with essentially a religion that you don't agree with. So feel free, you know, do challenge that too, because it's those little . . .

Kate Harris:

And Graham, something really, really important which I'm so sorry I haven't mentioned, and that's the GRA in Scotland, that is terrifying.

We've already challenged that once, we challenged it 2019 to 2020, it's back and we have to challenge it again. So let's not forget Scotland and let's not forget the LGBTQIA+ Action Plan in Wales.

We're fighting on all fronts but we can do it together because reason is on our side.

Bev Jackson:

Well it certainly is and when we see, I think when people have heard that the Scottish Government decided to drop the word "mother" from its Maternity Bill, in response to, um, to certain demands then I think they'll realise what's at stake.

And so people are, I think, much more alive to the issues now than they were a year ago.

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 06:25

Thanks so much for that Bosky.

Has this been posted from thoughtful therapists yet? (Stella et al) I couldn't see it, sorry if cross posted.

https://thoughtfultherapists.org/scoping-survey-pdf/?fbclid=IwAR07bHPZEJPnUX187gy2oOkvY1-sY2GAoc9clW0Cwt5vw5lmHBpHhPDk9-4

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 06:28

thoughtfultherapists.org/scoping-survey-pdf/

In case that link doesn't work.

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 06:28

It's not a survey, it's an analysis.

JustWaking · 30/10/2021 07:40

Love the helpful insight we get here.

I can see now how this is a Trojan horse. I was fooled by the mention of mermaids, and Liz Truss's involvement (I think she's great, but this will get away from her). A small cynical part of me is a bit suspicious of the timing of more balanced articles in the last few weeks from the BBC, lulling us into a false sense of security

The GRA got us into a mess by creating a fiction in law. The ripple effects of that are still hurting us. This will create similar mess, by putting Gender Identity ideology - a belief - into law.

And we've seen how even balanced laws can be misapplied - with Marion Millar put through hell for posting a picture of some ribbons, whilst explicit rape and death threats by TRAs are ignored. I think it's very likely that this new law would be used to attack people with GC views and let TRAs go right ahead.

As a first step, I'm going to follow the advice to email and ask the consultation to change the first question where you are required to give your gender identity. I don't believe in gender identity.

The whole thing makes me think of this Calvin and Hobbes cartoon

RobinMoiraWhite · 30/10/2021 08:16

@allmywhat

That seems too good to be true! It would make total sense to include this under a conversion therapy ban but would they really? I don’t dare to believe it.

On another note did anyone else guffaw at this?

Trans rights groups said that the proposals risked having a “chilling effect” on free speech.

The article is complete twaddle. The 'chilling effect' quote comes from TT, apparently.

It seems to have been written to stir up opposition from trans supportive groups.

This just demonstrates the jounalistic standards at The Times these days.

Wildfart · 30/10/2021 09:13

It seems to have been written to stir up opposition from trans supportive groups.

It doesn't take much to do that does it?

Weekend conference about global violence against women and girls?

Opposition from trans supportive groups telling rape survivors to "suck their dick transphobic cunt."

Conference on Women in Prison?

Trans person with megaphone shouting fuck off you cunt in a woman's face.

Professor writes a book about balancing rights?

Masked men intimidate her so much the police advise security measures and she quits the job.

What's the plans for bullying and intimidating everyone over this consultation?

Do keep it up, the world is watching.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/10/2021 09:15

As a first step, I'm going to follow the advice to email and ask the consultation to change the first question where you are required to give your gender identity. I don't believe in gender identity.

This is the problem with the whole consultation. It starts from the premise that gender identity is a "real" thing that everyone has.

As the first question shows, the civil service is steeped in gender identity woo, and the whole consultation will be seen through this lens.

BatmansBat · 30/10/2021 09:44

I believe trans supporting people have been working overtime to make sure that everything is kept quiet for the good of the trans community.

This is a nice message from Dr Finn. “Yes, I believe you. There are rapey creeps in our community but don’t talk about it”.

When you have so many people trying to silence actual abuse, threats and rape…. when you have members of that group shouting sexualised abuse at rape survivors and at prison demonstration…

I am surprise that anyone would be stupid enough to think “yes, I will on purpose write an article which could be a bit muddled about a public consultation”…”we haven’t seen much trans rights activism for a while”. “That will do it”.

Lesbians are suspected of lying, journalists are suspected writing dodgy articles….

Urging change of gender to be criminalised - The Times article
Wildfart · 30/10/2021 09:57

It's quite astounding that Mackay wrote that.

Weinstein, yes he's creepy but it's not great for the film communication to address it.

R Kelly, yes he's creepy but it is not great for the music community to address it.

It seems creepy men will invariably be supported by some people.

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