Urging change of gender to be criminalised - The Times article

[ShrillSiren]

I've just seen this article in The Times come up on Twitter.

Does anyone have a share token as this looks like huge news.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/urging-change-gender-criminalised-trans-rights-lgbtq-0vw7trcj2

The Government Equalities Office have published a load of documents on this today. I've not had a chance to read them as I'm at work, but they're here:

www.gov.uk/government/collections/conversion-therapy-consultation-and-research-reports

I'm clinging on to hope for a couple of reasons:

1. Truss is sensible, and is listening.
2. It's an actual consultation. We turned the GRA one round.

I think you have misread the Times article.

It is the gender-critical Stephanie Davies-Arai, director of Transgender Trend, not trans rights groups, who has said that the proposals risked having a “chilling effect” on free speech.

It actually says that trans rights groups said that there would be 'a “chilling effect” on free speech':

Government sources suggested that organisations such as Mermaids, a charity that offers advice and counselling to children with gender dysphoria, could be outlawed. Trans rights groups said that the proposals risked having a “chilling effect” on free speech.

It uses the phrase "chilling effect" again later when talking about Transgender Trend (but not in relation to free speech):

Stephanie Davies-Arai, director of Transgender Trend, a group of parents, professionals and academics troubled by the trend to diagnose children as transgender, said that the new laws could threaten legitimate discussions.

She said: “This may have a chilling effect on therapists working with children with gender dysphoria unless there are clear, specific protections built into the bill.”

But who knows who actually said what in such a garbled article.

in a BILL about conversion therapy not bit!

If I had to ask the government one question it would be to define gender identity. Really define it.

Yes. They can't make a law which prohibits attempting to change someone's gender identity without spelling out what exactly a gender identity is. A definition that everyone can understand. So not just a waffly 'feelings about their gender' sort of definition.

@teawamutu

I'm clinging on to hope for a couple of reasons:

1. Truss is sensible, and is listening.
2. It's an actual consultation. We turned the GRA one round.

Exactly. There were massive attempts to game that and the government actually did some proper analysis that saw straight through this.

In response to BREAKING: Organisations such as Mermaids, a charity that offers advice and counselling to children with gender dysphoria, could be outlawed - government source

Via @thetimes

Mike Freer MP has Tweeted the following:

This is incorrect. Our proposals set out that any person who tries to change the sexual orientation or gender identity of someone U18 would be at risk of prosecution.

This does not mean that organisations that seek to provide advice to U18s would be 'outlawed'.

@Ekofisk

In response to BREAKING: Organisations such as Mermaids, a charity that offers advice and counselling to children with gender dysphoria, could be outlawed - government source

Via @thetimes

Mike Freer MP has Tweeted the following:

This is incorrect. Our proposals set out that any person who tries to change the sexual orientation or gender identity of someone U18 would be at risk of prosecution.

This does not mean that organisations that seek to provide advice to U18s would be 'outlawed'.

See, it's already starting. mermaids will say but these children already have a gender identity, because they say so.

It's a fucking mess.

The government need some more spine starch, I'm afraid. Half measures won't work.

@Ekofisk

In response to BREAKING: Organisations such as Mermaids, a charity that offers advice and counselling to children with gender dysphoria, could be outlawed - government source

Via @thetimes

Mike Freer MP has Tweeted the following:

This is incorrect. Our proposals set out that any person who tries to change the sexual orientation or gender identity of someone U18 would be at risk of prosecution.

This does not mean that organisations that seek to provide advice to U18s would be 'outlawed'.

I am looking forward to Mike Freer MP explaining for the purposes of legislation what exactly genderqueer, genderfuck and two spirits mean.

Good luck, Mike

I do think Truss has her head screwed on regarding gender bollocks but I am concerned by how vague this is.

I can see the Government lawyers responsible for the wording of any legislation spending a lot of time down peering rabbit holes with frequent banging of heads on desks.

Wasn't it David Bell, and other people at the Tavistock who said that they were worried they were transing the way the gay? And at this rate, there will be no gay youth left?

Do the government not get it yet?

If a clinician at the Tavistock is confronted by a youth they think is gay, but has been subjected to homophobia, and now thinks they are trans, are they not allowed to say do you think you might be gay?

According to this legislation, no they can't, on both counts. They can't say the person is not trans, and they can't suggest they might be gay!!!

It's completely bonkers.

They need to do this in stages. And the first stage is to take this out of schools. They have already said schools are not allowed to teach anything that's not based on evidence. There is absolutely no evidence for a thing called gender identity.

Start with that.

Government consultation on conversion therapy – statement from Transgender Trend

www.transgendertrend.com/government-consultation-conversion-therapy-statement-transgender-trend/

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Only the medical profession will be able to with with these issues, and they won't be able to do it for minors.

My difficulty with this is that it feels like the affirmation model. If a young person adopts an ideology and tells you this is a reality for them, it's unclear to me that an HCP will be supported to explore the totality of the young person's life and what underlies this. There is, of course, no ban on friends who coach young people on what to say to obtain a preferred model of treatment. tbh, there is no reasonable way around to resolve 'friends' even where these are adults or people overstepping boundaries as non-credentialled counsellors or TAs.

There's a "brake" here though.

HCPs can be sued.

To my mind, this is government ensuring the burden of responsibility for any "therapy" lies with the medical profession. Recent judgements have underscored this as well.

In short, an organisation or individual will not be able to offer any persuasive service or material as to sexuality or gender identity if they cannot be sued for any harm arising from said persuasive service or material.

These proposals, to me, are about stopping people from spouting dangerous bollocks willy nilly without any regard for consequences.

I’m confused about what exactly this means, but I’m hopeful that with Liz Truss in charge we will get some legal protection for women and children. I’ve completed the consultation and it gave me hope to see that they have separated sex and gender. The consultation asks for your sex and notes that gender will be asked for in a later question.

@Leafstamp

Silly question but why don’t government have a preliminary meeting with experts like Sex Matters on these things before the consultation goes public?!

I know that’s unrealistic but I’m sick of government incompetence.

Well, the problem is who gets to define the experts if they are advising the government behind closed doors.

One of the shocking things is how many public institutions have accepted Stonewall as the experts on LGBT matters and overlooked their role as a lobby group which has allowed them to present the situation as they would like it to be rather than the law as it is. Which means self ID has been instituted all over the place without a proper political and public debate.

I'm sure there must be a process for some input into what might need to be consulted upon but I'd be careful about relying upon lobby groups to provide guidance - you might think it was okay if it was Sex Matters, but what if it were Mermaids or Stonewall that were the expert consultants?

@Leafstamp

Silly question but why don’t government have a preliminary meeting with experts like Sex Matters on these things before the consultation goes public?!

I know that’s unrealistic but I’m sick of government incompetence.

Because Sex Matters aren't experts by any stretch of the imagination

I think this is a good way forward.

I read this as an ultimate light touch approach that respects the feelings of a young person whilst warning others not to attempt to unduly influence them from their declared sexuality or gender identity.

Support can be given for feelings of distress, but the fact that the approach should mean that their declared sexuality or gender is not a battleground for other people means, I believe, that distress should be lessened.

I think it should also mean that gender identity drops in significance, because it's just a kind of shrug in response 'ok whatever you say is right for you' whilst not challenging or promoting direction which could cause a young person to either feel a need to 'prove' a certain gender ID or be unduly influenced by others to further consolidate an ID.

People's gender identities have become a battleground for others and young people are the victims of this proxy war. Take that away and mental wellbeing will improve.

Glad this thread is here.

I have read the Times article in full and yes, it's either very very cleverly written to be so ambiguous or it hasn't been thought through properly.

In VIC, Australia, we had an anti-conversion therapy bill passed last year that was much clearer (and, as far as I'm aware) had no exemptions for psychs, docs or therapists) - no one is allowed to do anything other than affirmation for trans-identifying youth. If they try to talk them out of it, then they could face prosecution with up to $10,000 fine and up to 10 years in prison.

So this article, at first glance, looks like good news - but if a child/youth presents as identifying as a certain gender, that is not the same as their sex, does it mean that they cannot be challenged on that? I.e., that they must be affirmed in their gender identity? At least it suggests that doctors and psychs should be exempt from any wrongdoing, and thank goodness for that! Because if anything is required, it's appropriate treatment for children/youth presenting with sudden desire to transition, including investigation into WHY!

I am completely against any form of conversion therapy for sexual orientation and support a ban on that entirely. But the wording regarding trans-identifying people has to be a LOT clearer. It is potentially good news that certain bodies may be outlawed in their current practices though - happy about that!

Another unclear article.

FFS, how am I supposed to answer this.

twitter.com/Pomegranate2021/status/1454096435461468168?t=z2LRbHBYUQ8BjHb7qqStoA&s=19

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