Urging change of gender to be criminalised - The Times article

[ShrillSiren]

I've just seen this article in The Times come up on Twitter.

Does anyone have a share token as this looks like huge news.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/urging-change-gender-criminalised-trans-rights-lgbtq-0vw7trcj2

I found an archived version.

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.md/2021.10.28-230329/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/urging-change-gender-criminalised-trans-rights-lgbtq-0vw7trcj2" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">archive.md/2021.10.28-230329/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/urging-change-gender-criminalised-trans-rights-lgbtq-0vw7trcj2

Trans rights groups said that the proposals risked having a “chilling effect” on free speech.

Oh, the irony . . .

Fucking hell. If this is real, it's BIG news.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/368a4c08-382e-11ec-8ef4-8e6db1a4b82a?shareToken=2f50adbb141e426a6731c6143529bb87

I've read it a couple of times but am still a bit confused about what exactly it's saying re gender ID.

I think they are basically saying you cannot talk a minor out of a gender identity but neither can you talk them into one.

The article suggests this will be bad news for Mermaids.

Just came on to see if there was a thread about this. This is such incredible good news. According to that article, much of this is down to the Keira Bell case. Good on her and everyone who supported her. There's been so much good news lately, the tide is FINALLY turning!

Nancy Kelley, chief executive of Stonewall, welcomed the “huge step forward” on gay conversion therapy but urged the government to go further on prayer and support for victims.

”We also can’t support the proposals for people to ‘consent’ to conversion therapy — a practice that is abusive cannot be consented to,” she said.

Funny. She felt quite differently just a couple of days ago when she was asked to comment on Lesbians being coerced into having sex with TW. Does she only disapprove of conversion therapy for men?

'Government sources suggested that organisations such as Mermaids, a charity that offers advice and counselling to children with gender dysphoria, could be outlawed.'

Just reading now...

I'm also confused by this section.

I think more info is needed on TT's concerns and since when did Stonewall advocate "prayer"....

"Stephanie Davies-Arai, director of Transgender Trend, a group of parents, professionals and academics troubled by the trend to diagnose children as transgender, said that the new laws could threaten legitimate discussions.
She said: “This may have a chilling effect on therapists working with children with gender dysphoria unless there are clear, specific protections built into the bill.” Nancy Kelley, chief executive of Stonewall, welcomed the “huge step forward” on gay conversion therapy but urged the government to go further on prayer and support for victims."

It is very confusingly written because the quotes at the end suggest that Stonewall endorses this but Transgender Trend opposes it. Which makes me suspect the reporter has misunderstood the proposal. Does anyone have any more info?

So this is to be included as part of the ban on conversion therapy?

This could be seismic.

It is confusing to read. Maybe it will be clarified later?

I can't read the full article on the archive as my phone blocks it. "Anybody who counsells a young person"
Would this include teachers, are they not counselling when agreeing to pronoun changes? Or would that come under family and friends.
This sounds good news for children particularly autistic girls.

That seems too good to be true! It would make total sense to include this under a conversion therapy ban but would they really? I don’t dare to believe it.

On another note did anyone else guffaw at this?

Trans rights groups said that the proposals risked having a “chilling effect” on free speech.

I'm confused.
Is it saying that you can't confirm or deny a child's gender?

As in, Mermaids can't say "maybe you're trans" and everyone else can't say "maybe you're not"?

I think it's hard to work out what's going on tbh.

The article doesn't make much sense wrt the respective comments from TT and Stonewall and lacks clarity overall.

Frankly it doesn't read like a Times article.

???welcomed the “huge step forward” on gay conversion therapy but urged the government to go further on prayer and support for victims."
I think this is a very poorly written sentence. I think it means NK wants to ensure 'prayer' is included in what's considerd as as conversion therapy (as in 'Under the practice, religious groups try to “cure” gay people through prayer or counselling. '), and she also wants the government to go further in supporting victims.

Let's hope for some clarity on social media later today.

It's a very confused article. I definitely want more clarification on this before calling it any sort of victory for children.

@FemaleAndLearning

Let's hope for some clarity on social media later today.

There's a first time for everything I suppose.

I don't understand if this is good or bad. My DD11 is being assessed for autism, she presents very masculine and is often confused for a boy. She knows she is a girl and is happy being herself. I am terrified of someone (teacher, friend, internet etc) getting in her head and convincing her she is really a boy. When I saw the headline, I felt relief, but I'm confused that TT are against and SW for. So confusing

Link from Transgender Trend Twitter to the consultation,
deadline is 10 December.
httpss://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-progresses-ban-on-lgbt-conversion-therapy

Much more clarity needed here. It's the referencing gender identity that needs careful unpicking. My reading is that if a child declares a gender identity not congruent with their physical sex, then this could mean they cannot receive anything other than affirmative therapy.

@OvaHere

It's a very confused article. I definitely want more clarification on this before calling it any sort of victory for children.

Yes...the mention of mermaids and Bell, and the part about stopping minors being taken abroad being parallel to FGM sounds like it's intended to stop people 'transing' kids. But Stephanie Davies-Arai obviously is worried it could impede counselling for kids who've already been 'transed' - which seems to happen a lot via SM and peer group , which is probably out of anyone's control.

From ITV news www.itv.com/news/2021-10-28/government-moves-closer-to-ban-on-conversion-therapy-unless-you-consent
"The Evangelical Alliance said: "We welcome this consultation in which the government is looking to honour its two commitments - to end coercive and abusive behaviour and to safeguard spiritual support for those who want it.

"Our concern is that some campaigners will push to see every day Christian practices such as prayer and pastoral care criminalised."

I don't think it was Stonewall who stayed prayer and pastoral care, but as quoted above".