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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Urging change of gender to be criminalised - The Times article

248 replies

ShrillSiren · 29/10/2021 00:23

I've just seen this article in The Times come up on Twitter.

Does anyone have a share token as this looks like huge news.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/urging-change-gender-criminalised-trans-rights-lgbtq-0vw7trcj2

OP posts:
Melroses · 29/10/2021 01:00

Presumably social media companies should take account of a new law.

FemaleAndLearning · 29/10/2021 01:00

stated not stayed!

Melroses · 29/10/2021 01:05

www.gov.uk/government/news/government-progresses-ban-on-lgbt-conversion-therapy

Government progresses ban on LGBT Conversion Therapy
Minister for Women and Equalities, Liz Truss, today (29 October) vowed to protect LGBT people, and especially under 18s, from harmful conversion therapies as she set out proposals to ban the practice.

Elegaic · 29/10/2021 01:05

Isn’t this a bad thing? Not the sexual orientation bit but gender identity.

Because if you take gender identity ideology seriously then you think we all have an innate gender identity. And the medical interventions etc are seen as confirming that inner gender identity. Surgery or hormones aren’t seen as ‘changing gender’ but as aligning the body with an existing inner gender which is different to the body. So in that paradigm mermaids and the gender clinics aren’t changing anything - they’re just helping the true gendered self to come through. So ‘conversion’ could mean talking about other possible explanations for the gender identity they’ve fixed upon such as trauma, autism, sexuality- as that might mean a change in identity such as a person shifting from seeing themselves as a trans man to seeing themselves as a lesbian. Anything other than affirmation can be framed as conversion if you believe in innate gender identity.

I think this sounds really worrying. I wonder if the government think ‘changing gender’ means ‘changing sex’ rather than ‘not affirming gender identity’. All will be clear in the consultation I suppose. But this to me looks like forced teaming.

Veeta · 29/10/2021 01:09

Agree, this article is clear as mud. Lots of complaints about the lack of clarity in the comments below so I’m hoping they take another look at it. Not really sure what to make of it.

BreadInCaptivity · 29/10/2021 01:10

Yes...the mention of mermaids and Bell, and the part about stopping minors being taken abroad being parallel to FGM sounds like it's intended to stop people 'transing' kids. But Stephanie Davies-Arai obviously is worried it could impede counselling for kids who've already been 'transed' - which seems to happen a lot via SM and peer group , which is probably out of anyone's control.

Having read the link to the consultation, that's how I'm inclined to view it.

It sounds problematic and very much a case of the devil being in the detail.

JulesRimetStillGleaming · 29/10/2021 01:22

It's a really badly written article that seems to be confusing gender/sex and gender identity. I hope they pull it and re-edit it.

Mollyollydolly · 29/10/2021 01:33

It's very confusing, it's like the first half of the article says something different to the second. Hoping for more clarity, this is what happens when language is deliberately confused, no-one is quite sure what is being said and we're all deeply suspicious that it means the opposite of what it says.

Packingsoapandwater · 29/10/2021 01:40

I think the confusion is because the proposals cover all "therapy" outside familial or medical contexts that seeks to convince an individual over their sexual orientation and/or gender identity, unless there is consent for such therapy to take place. And that consent cannot be given by minors.

So advice from mermaids would become illegal, but so would advice from transgender trend. Stonewall is in a bind here, because the proposals would outlaw conversion therapy directed at gay people but it would also apply to their material about gender identity.

From what I can see, government is saying that these issues belong to the medical realm, not the activist or charity realm.

In a way, it's clever. They are taking the activist groups out of the equation.

It reminds me a bit of the FGM legislation proposals where it became clear that the definitions would cover cosmetic labial piercing or cosmetic labial surgery. That's why the issue of consent needs to apply. And the definitions have to apply to everyone; otherwise, the law is discriminatory.

Packingsoapandwater · 29/10/2021 01:47

So Stonewall, for example, can represent LGBT people, but it cannot suggest you may be LGBT.

Transgender Trend can represent, say, people concerned about gender ideology, but it cannot suggest a transgender individual may not be transgender.

It's, in an odd way, a kind of neo-Section 28 that applies across sexuality and gender identity, rather than just applying to gay lifestyles. You won't be able to promote or persuade someone that they are not gay, straight, transgender, or not transgender unless you are a medical professional or a member of said person's family.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/10/2021 03:12

Too much uncertainty and too poorly written for me to have an opinion on it.

If 'friends' include the ones on YT and other social media drivers that convince children that they have a gender identity then I can't see how this won't create workarounds for Mermaids etc. And there will still be controversy over school toolkits in use for PHSE etc.

I hope some other newspapers do a better job of reporting so that there's greater clarity.

BloodinGutters · 29/10/2021 06:03

Lgb conversation therapy and gender identity ‘conversation therapy’ are two entirely different (opposite) things and tt are right to want clarification on what this means.

User27569 · 29/10/2021 06:41

Text below is from the government consultation. It sounds like they only want registered medical professionals to be able to perform therapy. Is it possible that Transgender trend are not against the proposals in spirit but are concerned that medical professionals will have to use therapy as affirmation and therefore this will remove any non-affirmation counselling for vulnerable people?

Government launches consultation on how to make coercive conversion therapies illegal
Proposed new laws will protect LGBT people, and especially under 18s, ensuring individuals cannot promote or profit from this harmful practice
Government to fund support for victims of conversion therapy, including helpline
In May this year, Truss announced her intention to introduce a legislative ban on the practice of conversion therapy, which seeks to change people’s sexual orientation or gender identity.

The 6-week government consultation on how to legislate for such a ban, launched today, is the next step in that process. Throughout the summer further engagement was carried out with victims of conversion therapy, many of whom detailed the negative impacts on their mental health, and key stakeholders.

The government’s proposals to ban conversion therapy in England and Wales include:

Ensuring physical conversion therapy acts are sentenced appropriately and introducing a new offence for so-called talking conversion therapies
Ensuring those found guilty of conversion therapy offences have any profit they obtained from those crimes removed, and strengthening the case for individuals to be disqualified from holding a senior role in a charity where they are convicted of a conversion therapy offence
Introducing Conversion Therapy Protection Orders to protect potential victims from undergoing the practice, including abroad - this could include removing passports of potential victims, who are at risk of being taken overseas for conversion therapy
Exploring further measures to prevent the promotion of conversion therapy
The consultation will allow individuals to express their views on these proposals, presenting a vital opportunity for the public and key stakeholders to work with the government to develop an effective ban.

Once the consultation has closed, the responses will inform further refinements to the proposals. The government will prepare and introduce legislation by spring 2022.

Minister for Women and Equalities, Liz Truss, said:

“There should be no place for the abhorrent practice of coercive conversion therapy in our society.

“Today we are publishing detailed proposals that will stop appalling conversion therapies and make sure LGBT people can live their lives free from the threat of harm or abuse.

“As we build back better from the pandemic, I want everyone to be able to love who they want and be themselves. Today’s announcement sets out how we will ban an archaic practice that has no place in modern life.”

Growing international evidence suggests that there is a strong link between conversion therapy and serious psychological harm. The government will make funding available to support victims of conversion therapy practices, making sure that those who need help can access it. In November, a competitive tendering process for a new government-funded support service for victims and those at risk of conversion therapy will be launched.

Minister for Equalities, Mike Freer, said:

“Everybody should be safe to be themselves at home, in the workplace and going about their daily lives. That is why we have set out these proposals to ban coercive conversion therapy and stop it impacting on the lives of people in this country.

“Input from victims and stakeholder groups will be vital and I urge everyone to have their say, making sure the ban puts an end to these practices, once and for all.”

Whilst violent forms of conversion therapy are already covered under other offences, the proposals that have been presented today would make all coercive conversion therapies illegal, making sure that where conversion therapy is the motive for violence, judges consider it as a potential aggravating factor when sentencing.

The government is also keen to safeguard under 18s, who are often targeted at a young age due to their vulnerability. Future laws will therefore place a particularly strong emphasis on preventing children undergoing any practices considered to be conversion therapies.

The proposals will also ensure that regulated clinicians are protected and are able to continue to undertake their valuable work. The ban will not seek to restrain these medical professionals and individuals should be free to seek out professional help and guidance, it will however target practices which people have not willingly agreed to undertake.

Alongside the proposed legislation for a specific ban, the Equality Hub will work across government to explore ways to prevent the promotion of conversion therapies in this country. This includes working with DCMS and others to consider vehicles to prevent online promotion.

Further Information:

The government would like to hear from everyone with an opinion on how we should introduce the ban and urge those with an interest and particularly those with experience of conversion therapy to come forward.
The government committed to banning conversion therapy in the Queen’s Speech.
A Conversion Therapy Protection Order will set out certain conditions to protect a person from undergoing the practice, including removing a passport for those under risk of being taken abroad or any requirement that the court considers necessary to protect the person for whose protection the order is made.
The government will work closely with devolved administrations in order to protect people from conversion therapy across the UK
The consultation will run for six weeks, closing on 10 December.
Alongside the consultation a research report on the impact of conversion therapy, completed by Coventry University, will be published.

Sexnotgender · 29/10/2021 06:44

Glad I wasn’t the only one confused by the article!

LizzieSiddal · 29/10/2021 06:50

The Times article reads like it’s two different articles, thrown together, very confusing.

Will have to wait for clarification.

NutellaEllaElla · 29/10/2021 07:04

Therapists will be getting very confused about what they're allowed to say in therapy. Nightmare.

LizzieSiddal · 29/10/2021 07:04

I’ve just looked at Transgender Trend on Twitter, there’s no mention of them saying they are unhappy with this and there is mention of a government consultation which starts today.
I expect this article will have to be amended to become clearer, later on today.

JustWaking · 29/10/2021 07:05

Would be great if this could be applied to protect lesbians from being pressured into accepting transwomen as sexual partners - which is effectively a form of conversion therapy and sometimes corrective rape Sad

LizzieSiddal · 29/10/2021 07:09

The BBC just reported on this and I think it’s bad news. It said it will ban all attempts to change someone’s “sexuality or gender ID”.

Sophoclesthefox · 29/10/2021 07:12

That article is confusingly written, and I’m not clear on what is proposed and how it will impact at this stage.

More to come on this, I hope, and more clarity.

ShinyHappyPoster · 29/10/2021 07:18

The article is a mess but tbh the government statement isn't much better. The issue is that when this was first mooted TRAs interpreted it as meaning there could only be an affirmative process for anyone struggling with their gender identity.
It sounds as though the government now realises that transitioning can be conversion therapy for young LG children as seen by all the countries that criminalise the L and the G but happily push them to transition instead.
Truss' position would create a double bind for some groups eg if they aren't affirmative then a trans child could say that it was conversion therapy.
But if they are affirmative, a young lesbian or gay boy could say that was conversion therapy because they are 'transing' the gay away.
It's a good discussion to have.
Another big issue is the government funded support service. Throughout the pandemic the government has viewed such 'tendering' processes as an opportunity to give massive contracts to unqualified friends. TRA groups will be all over tendering for it and trying to infiltrate groups tendering for it. I hope GC groups are too. And that the government is aware enough to manage that and safeguard appropriately.

Nellodee · 29/10/2021 07:27

To be fair, if all counselling on any aspect of gender was banned, and counsellors were only permitted to discuss other issues causing distress, that wouldn’t be the worst result.

skodadoda · 29/10/2021 07:29

@GCAcademic

Trans rights groups said that the proposals risked having a “chilling effect” on free speech.

Oh, the irony . . .

Absolutely. The group that have hounded Professor Kathleen Stock out of her job have said that they are not open to debate and will not ‘be reasoned out of existence’. Says it all really.
Hoardasurass · 29/10/2021 07:37

I am wondering if this bill would make statements such as Nancy Ks from the BBC lesbian article would be classed as conversion therapy for lesbians.
Other than that I don't really understand what is being changed as I found the article rather confusing but I (probably naively) can't help thinking anything that puts mermaids out of business can't be all bad.

WarriorN · 29/10/2021 07:41

My first thought was what @Elegaic describes, my issue is that I see parents posting in forums, not even gender identity ones, just normal parenting ones, and they absolutely believe their children are the opposite sex.

I mean, look at the CEO of mermaids.

So unless this is backed up with comprehensive guidance from Tavistock with clarity around diagnostic points and watchful waiting for the Gen Public (can't see how that's doable in reality) I can't see how this will work.

(Unfortunately when you've been involved in a discussion in the v well respected breastfeeding support group that you've been a member of for 8 years where several women you thought to be knowledgeable about biology, child development etc, where they were adamant about gender ideology being fact, and aggressively so, you develop a very jaded view)