Urging change of gender to be criminalised - The Times article

[ShrillSiren]

I've just seen this article in The Times come up on Twitter.

Does anyone have a share token as this looks like huge news.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/urging-change-gender-criminalised-trans-rights-lgbtq-0vw7trcj2

[quote Leafstamp]Ive just seen this on Twitter, seems like a sensible action to take.

If you are unhappy that this government consultation assumes that we all have a “Gender Identity” & want them to to remove this bias & add “Do you have a Gender Identity” before the compulsory question below, email

[email protected]

to say so.

mobile.twitter.com/coccinellanovem/status/1454098377839456274[/quote]
Have done this now. Have pointed out that on the religion question they have the option of ' no religion' and this should be the line that is followed regarding gender identity.

Of course that first question could be a cynical attempt to make sure that only gender ideology adherents respond to the consultation...

I've emailed the cabinet office about the wording and copied in my MP (safe long term labour seat).

I'll be doing the same, once I have gathered my thoughts and got rid of the MN terminology.

I don't think this is one to miss. So I will trawling through this thread and it's links to be certain I say everything I mean!

I haven't had the chance to read every comment so apologies if I'm repeating anything.

Basically they are trying to please everyone. So it would be illegal to persuade someone to transition but also illegal to not "affirm". The organisation Sex Matters are nor impressed. Here are their key points...

"It will:
Create a legal concept of “transgender children” based on self identification.

Threaten parents and therapists who resist affirming their child’s declared trans identity with criminal sanctions.

Allow Stonewall and other charities to apply for “Conversion Therapy Protection Order”, removing a child’s passport.

Make charities that work with children afraid to employ gender-critical staff."

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/conversion-therapy/

Worryingly, I saw this yesterday and took a screen shot though I didn’t know how to get the link.

Here's Robin stirring up trouble on Twitter

Robin Moira White (she/her)
@moira_robin
·
Oct 28
BBC responds to criticism of ‘lesbian coercion by emphasising the importance of hearing ‘a range of voices’. And in other BBC news, Joseph Goerbels is invited onto ‘Question Time’ to explain the need to invade Poland…

Comparing testimony from victims of sexual abuse and rape to Geobels Robin? Do you support barristers using that as a tactic in rape cases? Vilify the victim?

Come on @RobinMoiraWhite!

That's ludicrous, even for you.

Not at all surprised- RMW has posted on here saying feminists using the dictionary definition of women is the same as Nazis' treatment of Jews.

RMW’s ways are the the classic ‘tell me you’re male without telling me you’re male’

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/banning-conversion-therapy/banning-conversion-therapy
I have just read this document and agree with lots of the concerns outlined by Sex Matters on their website particularly that the way it is worded creates categories of trans child and non-trans child. It also conflates LGBT as one group as per Stonewall.
sex-matters.org/posts/updates/conversion-therapy/

However does this bit below mean that children in school, 'non-trans' children will be protected from being exposed to the 'conversion therapy' of Stonewall propaganda 100s of different gender identities as part of the school curriculum? Does the ban on talking therapy mean that 'watchful waiting' will be the norm for children who say they are 'trans' rather than 'affirmation' as so often seems to be the case now.
Quote from document: 'The proposed protections are universal: an attempt to change a person from being attracted to the same-sex to being attracted to the opposite-sex, or from not being transgender to being transgender, will be treated in the same way as the reverse scenario. They therefore protect everyone.

Note 'not being transgender' is stated before 'being transgender' .

It all seems like a sledge hammer to crack a nut in that who these days tries to stop their child being gay apart from those with religious concerns? In Middle Eastern countries I understand being trans is seen as more acceptable than being gay but I don't think that applies in the UK really.

I am a bit worried but slightly hopeful it is a pragmatic way of stopping trans ideology being pushed in schools, as the Tories are worried about being accused of Section 28 all over again.

I may be reading this wrong, but isn't there also a danger of this utterly screwing over detransitioners? How can they set up peer support groups for each other under this proposed framework without falling foul of the law?

That's a v good point.

Placemarking with big concerns having read the helpful Sex Matters briefing. There’s no such category as a ‘trans’ child. Children gender non conforming is normal. They don’t need medication or affirming obviously on that basis alone. If they are distressed (whatever their views on gender) then they need proper talking therapy support. This proposal isn’t helping anyone with that and looks like it is effectively bringing in legal self ID for kids, by establishing the legal concept of a trans child. Really worrying.

I have emailed about that question in the consultation. I hope they change it soon as I would like to respond.

Maya Forstater has just posted a concerning thread twitter.com/MForstater/status/1454708417818472451?t=g7LEkm-g22P2qnQSXlFY5A&s=19

*

This is extraordinary and completely unethical.

The lead researcher on @GEOgovuk @covcampus research on #ConversionTherapy declares that he is sure the interviewees for the research share his political view on @ALLIANCELGB t.co/rOtMOPyYpl

Lots of lesbians replied to this call for interviewees about the pressure to accept male ("trans women") partners.

Were these women excluded from the research because their definition of lesbian was judged to be "exclusionary" and "transphobic"? t.co/Oj5cnqqDfy

Jowett has complained to the BBC because they covered this phenomenon, which was excluded from the GEO research t.co/qYSWmWFmqt

I've been reading through the consultation documents in an attempt to see if they define 'gender identity'. I haven't found anything yet, but they do define 'transgender' in this document:
www.gov.uk/government/publications/conversion-therapy-an-evidence-assessment-and-qualitative-study/conversion-therapy-an-evidence-assessment-and-qualitative-study

‘Transgender’ in this report describes people whose gender identity is different to their sex recorded at birth. ‘Cisgender’ refers to people whose gender identity matches their sex recorded at birth.

This is meaningless without a definition of gender identity. Do they define this term elsewhere in the consultation documents?

The consultation doesn't properly define "conversion therapy" or "gender identity", and taking into account the policy captured and bad faith environment we now operate in, where TRA's seize any opportunity to interpret words contrary to the spirit and intent of the law, I think there needs to be a concerted effort to reject the governments proposals as they stand.

Given that Gender Identity is a malleable, unverifiable concept, legislation that protects a subjective view of gender identity, simply on another's self perception, rather than objective reality, is irrational, divisive and arbitrary.
Gender identity is a matter of opinion, cannot be proved, and should not, therefore, be used as a basis for making law.

The transgender Trend article shows that legal advice from Jeremy Hyam QC found there was a “substantial risk of unlawfulness” in a legislative ban on conversion therapy for ‘gender identity’ due to:
The wide and contested meaning of the term,
The lack of a reliable scientific or evidential basis to justify a ban, and,
Incompatibility with the right of parents to choose an appropriate treatment for their child in line with their beliefs (such as ‘watchful waiting’).

A long read, but worth it. Tell everyone you know to make a submission, because this is very serious!
www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Conversion-Therapy-Legal-Opinion-Jeremy-Hyam-QC.pdf

‘Transgender’ in this report describes people whose gender identity is different to their sex recorded at birth. ‘Cisgender’ refers to people whose gender identity matches their sex recorded at birth.

They'd better NOT be trying to get that godawful term "cisgender" into ANY legal documentation!!

Aside of the fact that "gender identity" is not defined in any meaningful way, I want to be able to reserve the right to never be referred to as "cis".

I think we have to be grateful that they defined 'Transgender' using sex 'recorded at birth' rather than Stonewall's 'sex assigned at birth'

They are banking on the fact that most people who don't know anything much about trans issues will go, "oh yes obviously conversion therapy is bad."

I have made the point strongly that while I am against conversion therapy for sexuality, gender issues are completely different and should not be treated in the same way as sexuality.