Urging change of gender to be criminalised - The Times article

[ShrillSiren]

I've just seen this article in The Times come up on Twitter.

Does anyone have a share token as this looks like huge news.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/urging-change-gender-criminalised-trans-rights-lgbtq-0vw7trcj2

@Datun

They need to do this in stages. And the first stage is to take this out of schools. They have already said schools are not allowed to teach anything that's not based on evidence. There is absolutely no evidence for a thing called gender identity.

Start with that.

They need to find a way to enforce this though. Despite me pestering school they still don’t get it. I’ll give it one last shot but then my only option would be formal complaint, copying in ofsted and governors. It’s primary and the last yr and I’m not sure if I can face the reality of that when I know I have to address it with two secondary schools next year, or ideally later this year. But there doesn’t appear to be any way for schools to be made to do this unless parents put in formal complaints. And how many parents know enough about this to not get brushed off by schools, who are manipulative as fuck ime, and how many know how to use grievance procedures effectively enough and use the resources to greatest effect, and how many would actually do it.

What is wrong with schools that they can ignore the d of e until parents force them to comply?

The problem is that is attempting to address a meaningless concept i.e. gender identity. So, in essence you have garbage in, garbage out.

What a mess.

[quote Imnobody4]FFS, how am I supposed to answer this.

twitter.com/Pomegranate2021/status/1454096435461468168?t=z2LRbHBYUQ8BjHb7qqStoA&s=19[/quote]
Oh great! That really instils faith... Pshaw!

Reading the consultation document, I agree with the posters saying this is a Trojan horse.

I really think the stuff about stopping Mermaids is a distraction. They would only be in trouble if they took a child who isn't currently identifying as trans and convinced them they are really trans. What they do is much more insidious than that.

I know Liz Truss has been good on this issue when it comes to women's spaces but I wonder if this is seen as a way to placate LGBT groups after supporting women. I'm not sure the government really understands what it means to 'be transgender' and how difficult it is to define.

The ban will be on trying "to change another from being transgender or to being transgender." Which seems to assume that 'being transgender' is a stable, immutable characteristic of a person. But we all know its more complicated than that. The idea of being trans is out there now, it's an available identity and explanation that a lot of people buy into.

So if there's a little girl who says 'I feel like a boy', their parents can interpret that as them being 'trans', and under these proposals, that's it. They are trans and no-one is allowed to question it. They can then go to Mermaids who aren't 'changing' anything but help to embed that identity more strongly. And saying that medical professionals can question isn't much help, as the medical and psychology professions are pretty much captured and almost all would just affirm that identity further.

This law wouldn't stop the amount of material promoting trans identities to young people which exists all over the internet. You can't ban a person talking about their transition on youtube or tiktok. But it could potentially stop adults being able to talk to young people about alternative ways to understand their experiences. At least once a young person has identified as trans.

I think its key here that gay conversion is an actual problem - there is lots of evidence that it happens and is damaging. But where is the evidence for trans conversion therapy? The whole medical profession is affirmative! So there must be another agenda for including it. I think that agenda is about instituting the idea of innate gender identity and the affirmative model in law. This is really dangerous.

@flyingbuttress43 - exactly, no one can agree what gender identity is, or even if it exists at all, so how an earth will it work.

If we could scrap any reference to gender or gender identity in law we’d be getting somewhere.

[quote Blackandwhitehorse]@flyingbuttress43 - exactly, no one can agree what gender identity is, or even if it exists at all, so how an earth will it work.

If we could scrap any reference to gender or gender identity in law we’d be getting somewhere.[/quote]
There should be some way to frame it, particularly in relation to kids, in terms of sex and non-conformity to sex-based stereotypes.

Anyone else feel like the confusion is intentional and perhaps the mention of disbanding Mermaids is part of that -distraction enough to have us think it’s a good thing whilst they push it through?

BloodinGutters

Yes, it's awful that you have to complain. But if that's the only way we can do it, then that's the way it will have to happen. They must come up with the evidence that the D of E are telling them they must base their policy on

It'll be very interesting to see how they propose to protect children making irreversible decisions before 18 and how they propose to protect free speech.

The devil will definitely be in the details.

I see I've been deleted.

It's always interesting what gets deleted.

Keira Bell has said that she believes that telling a child they are transgender is conversion therapy for a gay child. That is what she has said.

The problem is that according to the Tavistock a lot of children who would be gay are now thinking they are trans because they are gender nonconforming. Gender nonconformity is the very definition of being gay.

So putting the T with the LGB is trying to make two things dovetail, which are actually in opposition to one another.

Not only is the T completely different to the LGB, it directly undermines them. As we have just seen over the issue of what constitutes a lesbian. According to transgenderism, it's a male.

You cant legislate for gender identity, because it is not based on any evidence.

What you do have evidence for, is men with gender dysphoria (and women), men with AGP, and an awful lot of youngsters showing up at gender clinics who have been subjected to
the now banned lessons about the genderbread person. Children have been taught that their gender is on a spectrum from Barbie to GI Joe.

So, again, that's what my question will be to the government - what is gender identity? What actually is it? Where's the evidence?

That article is very confusing.

1) You mustn't encourage someone to think they may be a different gender to their biological sex

Or

2) You mustn't suggest someone isn't the gender they say they are?

It’s both. If a (born) female says they are a man or their gender identity is male then it will be illegal to try and change that. If a (born) female says they like doing ‘boy things’ it will be illegal to convince them that means they are a boy.

I understand mental health professionals will still be allowed to do exploratory psychotherapy with children.

However Bev Jackson (LGBA) has spoken on YouTube saying she believes this is also (primarily in her view) a Trojan horse to get ‘gender identity’ recognised in law.

@Datun

BloodinGutters

Yes, it's awful that you have to complain. But if that's the only way we can do it, then that's the way it will have to happen. They must come up with the evidence that the D of E are telling them they must base their policy on

The section that talks about evidence is only in the planning your curriculum part and it’s under the heading resources and says -when deciding if a resource is suitable you should consider if it is evidence-based and contains robust facts and statistics.

So I’m not sure if they will use that to slime their way out of the informal complaint we are definitely following up, because they might well claim that doesn’t relate to a definition they’ve taken off of the nhs because they might say that a definition isn’t a resource.

We might follow up formally, I’ve been going through a lot of it today, and at least will follow up informally, and copying in the governors, but I also have two kids with send going to two different secondary schools I need to get on with fixing these problems there, and the next 6/7 years of my kids lives feel a bigger issue right now. I’d like to put in a formal complaint at primary if they keep spouting bs, but it might depend on what response we get back from senior safeguarding slime ball first (sadly have dealt with her insincerity, lack of accountability and condescending be kind bs over other things).

So we might. But even if we do we are just one family out of how many who never do. There should be a straightforward way of schools being made to do what d if e tell them without parents needing to make them. I have no idea why ofsted give schools outstanding ratings when they have mixed sex toilets breaking building regulations act, or when they have pshe policies listing stonewall etc but they do all the time. A system that relies on parents having to put a disproportionate amount of effort, energy, time and emotion into issues that many have no idea about, isn’t safe for kids at all. It’s terrifying.

BloodinGutters

It feels like a needle in a haystack in terms of opposition, doesn't it? Bloody well done to you for pursuing this.

It is this kind of grassroots objection from the bottom up that is making the difference.

You won't be the only one, either.

Well done. Really.

@Fieldofgreycorn

That article is very confusing.

1) You mustn't encourage someone to think they may be a different gender to their biological sex

Or

2) You mustn't suggest someone isn't the gender they say they are?

It’s both. If a (born) female says they are a man or their gender identity is male then it will be illegal to try and change that. If a (born) female says they like doing ‘boy things’ it will be illegal to convince them that means they are a boy.

I understand mental health professionals will still be allowed to do exploratory psychotherapy with children.

However Bev Jackson (LGBA) has spoken on YouTube saying she believes this is also (primarily in her view) a Trojan horse to get ‘gender identity’ recognised in law.

Well in that case, sex matters is absolutely right, it is cementing self ID in law, in children.

And that would be a no from every single woman who is looking at it.

Sounds quite balanced to me Datun. Consultation document:

Our view is that a talking therapy delivered to either a person under 18 or a person who is 18 or over and who has not given informed consent, with the intention of changing their sexual orientation or changing them to or from being transgender, should constitute a criminal offence.

I want to reassure those who may have concerns about the impact of this ban on clinicians’ independence as well as on freedom of speech. People’s personal freedoms are key to the health and functioning of a democratic society, such as freedom of choice, freedom of speech and belief, and are central to my proposals. It is also vitally important that no person is forced or coerced into conversion therapy, and that young people are supported in exploring their identity without being encouraged towards one particular path. This is especially the case for those who are under 18 and where this might result in an irreversible decision.

How would that work in practice though. If a young person has adopted a trans identity you can’t openly explore their identity with them without also opening up the idea (even implicitly) that they might not be transgender. And then being accused of conversion therapy.

I think its key here that gay conversion is an actual problem - there is lots of evidence that it happens and is damaging. But where is the evidence for trans conversion therapy?

There is none. This is from one of the supporting documents.

Compared with conversion therapy for sexual orientation, little evidence was found on the detailed experiences of people who have gone through conversion therapy for gender identity, specifically in the UK (such as duration, frequency, and modalities and characteristics of approaches). There is also little evidence about the paths people have taken towards conversion therapy (for example, how voluntary and involuntary they were) and their subsequent experiences.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/an-assessment-of-the-evidence-on-conversion-therapy-for-sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/an-assessment-of-the-evidence-on-conversion-therapy-for-sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity

More documents here if anyone's got time to read them.
www.gov.uk/search/all?parent=the-equality-hub&keywords=conversion%20therapy&organisations%5B%5D=the-equality-hub&public_timestamp%5Bfrom%5D=29/10/2021&order=relevance

[quote OldCrone]I think its key here that gay conversion is an actual problem - there is lots of evidence that it happens and is damaging. But where is the evidence for trans conversion therapy?

There is none. This is from one of the supporting documents.

Compared with conversion therapy for sexual orientation, little evidence was found on the detailed experiences of people who have gone through conversion therapy for gender identity, specifically in the UK (such as duration, frequency, and modalities and characteristics of approaches). There is also little evidence about the paths people have taken towards conversion therapy (for example, how voluntary and involuntary they were) and their subsequent experiences.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/an-assessment-of-the-evidence-on-conversion-therapy-for-sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/an-assessment-of-the-evidence-on-conversion-therapy-for-sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity

More documents here if anyone's got time to read them.
www.gov.uk/search/all?parent=the-equality-hub&keywords=conversion%20therapy&organisations%5B%5D=the-equality-hub&public_timestamp%5Bfrom%5D=29/10/2021&order=relevance[/quote]
Exactly. A made up problem. So that’s not the real agenda.

Good find!

@Elegaic

How would that work in practice though. If a young person has adopted a trans identity you can’t openly explore their identity with them without also opening up the idea (even implicitly) that they might not be transgender. And then being accused of conversion therapy.

Yes I see your point. But I think the government are trying to say with young people you neither affirm or deny. You explore. So if they say they are transgender, a clinician as part of their professional obligations wouldn’t say: yes you are or: no you’re not. They would say: tell me why you think that. Let’s talk about it.

They would say: tell me why you think that. Let’s talk about it.

You don't think that could be construed as suggesting it's not 100% true?

If that’s what they want to achieve banning conversion therapy isn’t helpful though. It just puts limits on what kind of conversations practitioners can have. If it doesn’t - if practitioners are free to explore everything in therapy- then what is being banned? The problem at the moment is not enough practitioners are doing exploration and can’t see how this makes them more likely to start.

You don't think that could be construed as suggesting it's not 100% true?

Possibly. But I think they’re trying to make it clear that isn’t the case. I’m sure the last thing this government wants is more children being put on a medical pathway.

The problem is the government are complicit with their lack of due diligence having funded / enabled all the unsuitable groups (Stonewall, Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence etc) and recommended them to schools via policy documents. Having done this (from naivety methinks) they're now complicit and will do anything to ensure that the public can't pin on them the catastrophic impact this has all had on child mental health and development.
So nothing can be clearly spelled out as it will lead to the public asking why they helped the advocates for this ideology to target young children like this? Hence all the inconsistencies and fudges in the consultation.
It's a mess.

Keira and TransgenderTrend have asked Jeremy Hyam QC for a legal opinion on the proposals. Very interesting.

www.transgendertrend.com/conversion-therapy-legal-opinion/