Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
patarake · 27/10/2021 22:34

Straight cis man here. I arrived here when I started looking around the topic after my DD became more and more insistent on the issue and shutting down arguments that I put forward around biology. I didn’t want to come across as my Father when homosexuality arrived in Britain, IYSWIM. However, as I look, I see more and more what seems like a lot of (biological) men trying to shut women up. Why is all the criticism aimed at women – there are plenty of men who probably feel like I do ie you can do what you want and should not be discriminated against in any way. You can live as a woman or man if that makes you comfortable, but you won’t become one and I won’t be sexually attracted to you because that’s my choice.

If we are talking about safety and threats then I really think we should first be looking at the continuing appalling misogyny out there, of which this seems to be a new front.

Enough4me · 27/10/2021 22:37

@merrymouse in reality people have freedom of speech though. So if I say I'm never having sex with a short man, TM, ginger man, that's my perogative. As is changing my mind if I meet a sexy ginger short man later.

I can provisionally say no to every human being across the globe, but change my mind when it suits me.

PickAChew · 27/10/2021 22:57

The thing with the sample size is that this sounds like it was largely qualitative research, establishing that it happens and detailing some experiences and that typically takes longer to carry out due to the detail needed. The fact that several accounts were obtained from such an apparently tiny sample suggests that this is not rare. If 3 rapes were recorded in a sample of 80 (I'm not only hard of reading but also tired and a little tipsy so can't recall exact details) then there most likely won't be less than 3 rapes recorded if that sample was expanded to 8000 (should be enough lesbians to maybe make the TRAs take notice) and even if it was still only 3 out of 8000, then that is still 3 too many!

Enough4me · 27/10/2021 23:16

Picking up from a parallel thread, there is a way to feedback anonymously to the BBC to encourage future honest reporting...
www.bbc.co.uk/contact/comments-feedback/#/Your%20comment

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/10/2021 23:17

"ciswiththeT" is yet another fine reason for me never to don the Cone of Shame that is Cis-dom.

GrinWine perfectly put. I am cringing.

PickAChew · 27/10/2021 23:34

It's a hashtag that doesn't even make sense.

CharlieParley · 28/10/2021 00:01

@PickAChew

It's a hashtag that doesn't even make sense.
Well, exactly. The definition of cis means there can be no such thing as a "cis lesbian". So what is it supposed to mean?

L with the T I get, that's a slap in the face of the survivors who told their stories and says we don't care about you, you're the wrong kind of lesbian, we only care about the lesbians who want to get with the T. (I mean it's not accurate, since it was really about particular male members of the trans community not the whole trans community but let's not let accuracy get in the way of a useful hashtag.)

Enough4me · 28/10/2021 00:18

Cis and trans appears to mean pretend, because cis lesbians are really straight women with men TW, who therefore pretend to be lesbians as TW say they AW.

Non cis lesbians are lesbians, so genuine, like women are women.

LobsterNapkin · 28/10/2021 01:36

@ArabellaScott

We've had this discussion before about consent and attraction.

The idea that it's wrong to 'exclude' people from your 'dating pool' operates on the assumption that the default is to be open to being sexually engaged with everyone, and that we then remove or exclude people from the pool.

That, I think, is fallacious for most. One could almost call it rapey - consent operates on a basis of 'no' as starting point, and seeks enthusiastic, informed consent. It does not start with 'yes' as a presumed starting point and then strike people out or find valid reasons to strike them out. There have been campaigns on consent that have sought to make this very point. (Consent is not about saying 'no', it's about saying 'yes').

The default is neutral - not feeling attraction. It's a small minority that most people find attractive. Vanishingly small, even. Out of the hundreds of people we walk past/encounter, only a very tiny fraction will be attractive.

I really dislike the idea of enthusiastic consent being required, but I tend to agree with the basic idea here. Most don't consider most people they meet as potential sexual partners.

It struck me back with the comment about a person saying on a dating ad that they didn't want black people, Asians, people with a limp etc. Which, put that way, does seem rather exclusionary. But in reality it's much more often someone is looking for someone with specific attributes. There are people who would prefer to be in a relationship with someone from their own culture. Many prefer to date within their own religion - there are dating services dedicated to Jewish, or Catholic people. Many people are looking for someone with a similar background to themselves, or similar level of education, or similar salary.

And there are good reasons for some of this, too, relationships between people with similar backgrounds can more likely to thrive, as exclusionary as that might sound.

I don't think that sexual orientation is really so similar as these things, though I also suspect it is somewhat subject to cultural shaping - but it is much more about looking for something specific (, eg women) than it is about rejecting something else (men).

PrincessNutella · 28/10/2021 05:39

I also think it is entirely legitimate to be uninterested in having a relationship with someone who is trans because one HAS "investigated" what one wants in a sexual/romantic partner and is just not interested in bringing the emotional work of being a trans ally into one's intimate life.

Vanishun · 28/10/2021 06:15

The comments on that Times article are heartening.

TheHoneyBadger · 28/10/2021 07:27

Thank you for the share token.

The comments are always reassuring however the fact that actually the general public en masse sees this movement for what it is and has no truck with the demands it's makes actually makes the institutional capture even more alarming.

There is nothing democratic about courts, universities, police forces, schools, hospitals etc going along with and enforcing an ideology that the vast majority of the population does not agree with and which encourages illegal actions under the equality act.

It is such a relief to see so many organisations pulling away from Stonewall. I sat through their sales pitch with my gay boss nearly a decade ago when working at an FE college. It set off massive alarm bells for him and he wasn't at all interested thankfully.

The madness of a system where you pay out money in order to jump through ever more extreme hoops of an agenda that actually ends up working against and alienating nearly all of the protected characteristics of the equality act and actually pushes you into taking illegal actions is insane - how did so many get sucked in and not realise sooner where the programme leads them?

Those following the Stonewall rules are ending up actively discriminating against sex, sexuality and belief and contravening the Equality Act at the word of a lobbying group that makes it's money from being paid to lobby to it's own 'customers' and giving them false and unsafe guidance.

Vanishun · 28/10/2021 07:47

"The madness of a system where you pay out money in order to jump through ever more extreme hoops"

When you put it like this (without any reference to the name of a specific organisation), it sounds like a Ponzi scheme. Or Scientology.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 28/10/2021 07:48

from the times artcle:

More than 10,000 people have signed a letter accusing the BBC of transphobia

this really has made people lose their fucking shit hasn't it?

women talking about men raping them. how very dare they?

BloodinGutters · 28/10/2021 07:54

I’m very confused by the expression ‘being open to sleep with’

I’m not open to sleep with anyone. Except my dh. And that’s only sometimes, not some continual ‘open for business’ type of thing.

So I’m not open to black men to disabled men or whatever else was in the list, along with not being open to transpeople.

I’m just one man attracted and that doesn’t even mean I’m ‘open to sleep’ with him until the point I want to say yes to having sex with him. Which obviously isn’t most hours of the day because life.

Stupid fucking has lighty phrase to suggest the default should be women ‘open to sleep with’ or get fucked by, let’s be honest, anyone at any point. And that there may in fact be bigotry in excluding people from that group. FUCK NO!!!!

BloodinGutters · 28/10/2021 07:55

Gas lighty.

BloodinGutters · 28/10/2021 08:10

@patarake

Straight cis man here. I arrived here when I started looking around the topic after my DD became more and more insistent on the issue and shutting down arguments that I put forward around biology. I didn’t want to come across as my Father when homosexuality arrived in Britain, IYSWIM. However, as I look, I see more and more what seems like a lot of (biological) men trying to shut women up. Why is all the criticism aimed at women – there are plenty of men who probably feel like I do ie you can do what you want and should not be discriminated against in any way. You can live as a woman or man if that makes you comfortable, but you won’t become one and I won’t be sexually attracted to you because that’s my choice.

If we are talking about safety and threats then I really think we should first be looking at the continuing appalling misogyny out there, of which this seems to be a new front.

I think the point is if it’s because of orientation it’s not a choice, it’s innate.

On top of that people then have any variety of preferences, which are also totally fine.

Because the starting point shouldn’t be women are open to sleeping with anyone and then discounting down because of reasons, the starting point should be NO. Which might sometimes change to yes if we feel attraction.

But orientation is not a preference, it’s not your choice to not be attracted to male you just aren’t. Same goes for lesbians.

TheHoneyBadger · 28/10/2021 08:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

BloodinGutters · 28/10/2021 08:14

@LobsterNapkin

Why would the idea of enthusiastic consent be a problem? It’s the FRIES acronym- consent should be given freely, reversible, informed enthusiastic and specific.

Why would anyone have a problem with that?

TheHoneyBadger · 28/10/2021 08:20

Because it implies women having the right to boundaries and for them to be accepted as clear rather than fuzzy just need a little persuasion, she loves it really type lines? Because conquest or overcoming resistance is a part of the turn for many men's sexuality?

TheHoneyBadger · 28/10/2021 08:21

And tbf a part of some women's turn on as well - though we'll never know how far that is socially conditioned because that is the version of sexiness sold to us from every direction all of our lives.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/10/2021 08:34

There are people in this world who are very upfront about their view that we should all be sexually available to everyone, and that women aren't allowed to prioritise their own satisfaction.

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2
BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2
OP posts:
borntobequiet · 28/10/2021 08:51

I’ve been a bit puzzled by enthusiastic as well. It sounds a bit Famous Five, and in context slightly undermines the credibility of the other words.

Helleofabore · 28/10/2021 08:54

Those tweets from that cyclist, whatever name they go by at the moment, are just horrendous.

Swipe left for the next trending thread