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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
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TheHoneyBadger · 27/10/2021 19:50

The whole framing of the discussion is so male. Having to justify not wanting to have sex with someone - who makes people do that? Being afraid to say no and having to come up with elaborate justifications - which sex experiences that? Which sex has proven to have difficulty with the simple concept that no means no and no debate thank you?

It just goes to prove that nothing really changes because of a change of costume and name.

Clymene · 27/10/2021 20:03

Lesbians are same sex attracted. Het women are opposite attracted. Men who transition have reduced their potential dating pool enormously because they don't fit into either of those boxes. So some of them are very angry about that.

This is nothing other than male rage at women not wanting to have sex with them. I have said no thank you to men who have offered to buy me a drink/wanted to chat with me in clubs and bars on many occasions. I have been told:

  • I'm an ugly fucking slag
  • I'm a lesbian (not an insult obvs)
  • they didn't fancy me anyway
  • who the FUCK do I think I am
  • fat bitch
Etc etc. Every single insult you can think of that men aim at women who have the temerity to say no.

This is what this is. Women saying no.

secular111 · 27/10/2021 20:07

This reply has been deleted

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Fukuraptor · 27/10/2021 20:12

All these progressive fans of intersectionality reacting to lesbians sharing how their female experience of rape culture intersects with their sexual orientation with fingers in their ears singing "La la la la".

Likewise, presumably, how being female intersects with transmen's treatment compared with transwomen's.

Intersectionality only matters to males if it allows males to claim to be more oppressed than females.

secular111 · 27/10/2021 20:29

And another article;

Lesbian barrister, 43, claims she sees 'sinister' men claiming to be trans women 'bully naïve and vulnerable' lesbian girls as young as 14 into sex

I doubt The Guardian or Independent will be able to cope with this, but The Daily Mail, The Times and Telegraph, plus Spiked, The Spectator and even perhaps The New Statesman are going to likely run with such articles for a few months. And that's just the UK; The NYT, Washington Post and LA Times will no doubt ignore the subject, but even using the Alex Jones' InfoWars denial technique they've been practicing isn't going to suffice. This thing can't be put back in it's box.

Whatstheweatherlike · 27/10/2021 20:35

As someone who usually watches from the sidelines, I've found the last day or so very distressing. I realise this must only be a fraction of the distress many lesbians are feeling right now. The sheer strength of the anger and hatred directed towards them, the BBC and the journalist who wrote the article is truly despicable. The purpose of the article was to allow some women to voice their traumatic experiences of sexual coercion and rape. The twisting of that into some sort of anti-trans propaganda is ridiculous, yet it has shown more than ever before the scale of the problem. I think part of it comes from the insistence on 'no debate' leading to any attempt to raise any issue being immediately labelled as transphobic.

I'm sure the BBC have carefully considered the outcome before publishing the piece and perhaps the inevitable onslaught will form part of subsequent articles. After all, they've published women's accounts of traumatic experiences and received an avalanche of hate for doing so - shout all you want but the only thing the hate shows is that you want to silence those vulnerable voices.

borntobequiet · 27/10/2021 20:40

My point was that our attraction to others does hinge on societal pressures to varying extents

I don’t think actual real sexual attraction hinges on societal pressures. It’s possible to be madly sexually attracted to anyone within your sphere of sexual orientation no matter what they look like, where they come from or who they are. Whether you act on that attraction may be mediated by societal pressure.
Many of these edicts on who one should date seem to be promulgated by those who don’t understand sexual attraction, hence the (to me) clumsy use of the terms “to date” and “dating”. Are they nowadays synonymous with “to have sex/sexual intercourse/indulge in sexual practices with? Because it’s certainly not clear to me.

DuckDuckNo · 27/10/2021 20:41

@TheHoneyBadger

The point here (in this cotton ceiling debate) is that people are being rejected because they are the wrong sex. That is all the reason a TW should need to hear from a lesbian, and it is homophobic to say another word on the matter

No, I'm afraid you're missing the point a bit there because under the TWAW ideology they are not the wrong sex and this is utter transphobia. That's the trouble. The ideology and activism has attempted to remove all loopholes - they can't now say it's ok for lesbians not to have sex with tw because they're they're not women because they've pumped all their energy into saying TWAW no debate.

This right here. If they say lesbians can say no to trans women they admit that there is a difference between trans women and biological women. And then the whole mirage dissolves.
Nellodee · 27/10/2021 21:01

Lots of people seem to be justifying this because harassing and pestering someone for sex and relationships is something that “everyone” does, not just transwomen.

I’ve almost never come across anyone but males harassing and pestering in this way. I’ve very rarely seen it from heterosexual women to men. I’ve frequently seen it from heterosexual men to women. Is it really common in lesbian women to other lesbian women?

CharlieParley · 27/10/2021 21:06

If someone says that they hate tightly curled hair, especially black hair, and they love straight blond hair there is a strong hint at racism going on!!!!

The reason why I disagree with your reasoning, LaetitiaASD, is because you assume there can be only one reason for that preference. In actual fact there can be many.

An exampke: It didn't take me long to realise that the men I felt most attracted to all looked like my father. I didn't see that as in any way objectionable, I still don't. It's because my father was the first male person in my life to love and cherish me.

He has some behavioural traits that drove me nuts as a tween and teen and I most definitely try to avoid those in a partner.

Again, that's perfectly logical.

At university, my friends all went out with a particular group of men. Abuse and disrespect for women was ripe within that community. I will not ever seek to date anyone from that community even though I never had a serious negative experience with one of those men. Watching what happened with my friends was offputting for life. And yes, that's a blanket rejection on grounds of ethnicity.

Prejudice is defined by Oxford Dictionaries as "a preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience".

My rejection of that whole group of men is based on reason and experience and yet your reasoning suggests that such a blanket rejection cannot be anything other than prejudice. (Let's please not misuse "bigotry" here, because the word does not apply.)

We're often not even aware why we do or don't find something attractive. It can be as simple as having been frightened as a baby by a woman wearing glasses or a man with a full beard.

If I preferred only blondes with straight hair (that is I did not feel any sexual attraction to someone with other hair) it could be because I have a very early subconscious preference for that type of hair or an equally subconscious dislike for other hair. What goes on in our brains when we feel attraction or not, is not a conscious process. Over time we all learn what does and does not turn us on. Most of us get pickier over time as experience tells us what traits do or do not work for us. It's far too simplistic to view this through the lens of the race debate or gender identity ideology.

As for the latter, I would not date any man who identifies as trans -
If he transitions and presents feminine that would not float my boat at all. I simply don't feel attracted to feminine men and I rejected most of what falls under femininity for myself a long time ago, because I consider it damaging to women, so I would find it impossible to date someone who loved femininity. I'd feel continually insulted that this man thinks femininity makes him a woman.

If he doesn't transition, but merely identifies as a woman because he believes in a female inner essence, it would be another no. I consider the doctrine of gender identity actively harmful to society in general, to women and children in particular and its political implications have already harmed me. I could not respect any man who holds that belief, however sincerely, because it comes with certain ideas I find unacceptable. His belief would mean he doesn't respect me. And respect is the absolute minimum for any kind of relationship for me.

Which leaves men with gender dysphoria. Here you could judge me, of course, but I have had some experience with people with serious mental health issues. And that's stress I would absolutely seek to avoid when dating, especially since I reject the premise underlying the theory behind gender dysphoria from a feminist perspective. (FAOD, I would not blanket reject all men with mental health issues.)

So yes, I blanket reject all males who identify as trans and it's not because I have a phobia, but because I could not date someone who believed in the doctrine of gender identity just as I wouldn't date any other devoutly religious man.

I also would not date a woman who identifies as trans and who transitioned and passed as a man, because she is female and that's not the sex I am attracted to. I only find tall, broad shouldered blokes attractive and I haven't met a single woman yet who comes even close to that physique. I'm not saying they don't exist. I'm sure there's a real Amazonian out there somewhere who is tall and broadshouldered, but in the end, she'd still be the wrong sex.

Now you're free to judge me, of course, but if you think that I would be a racist or transphobe for blanket rejecting whole groups, please explain your reasoning in detail.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/10/2021 21:14

If Janine, however, were to say "I would never sleep with a trans woman under any circumstances. Even if they presented in a masculine way and had the sort of body and personality I go for. Even if they were a GC environmentalist who loves tennis like me, I wouldn't consider dating them because they identify as trans", then that starts looking a bit transphobic to me. It starts to look like the only reason to reject them is the trans thing.

I'm a straight woman. I feel like Janine. I don't believe in gender identity ideology so I don't see them as anything other than completely male. Am I transphobic for this in and of itself? Should I examine my prejudices?

OperationDessertStorm · 27/10/2021 21:33

@VladmirsPoutine

it's probably best not to go around saying "I never sleep with black men" or "I'd never sleep with a trans person".

I agree. I have certain thoughts that would probably make me a social pariah if I aired them so it's best to just keep them to myself.

But that logic means you shouldn’t go around saying you are gay or heterosexual etc - so that’s not ‘airing certain thoughts’, it’s pushing people back in the closet.

There are 7billion people on the planet - if someone cannot find a willing partner, they need to make themselves more attractive in some way, not badger other people into being more willing.

allmywhat · 27/10/2021 21:46

I'm a straight woman. I feel like Janine

#TeamJanine, bi division. And I don’t care if it’s transphobic, what does that even mean? I am only resolved to act in that manner, which will, in my own opinion, constitute my happiness, without reference to [Nancy Kelly], or to any person so wholly unconnected with me.

More than 200 years later and that’s still a rebellious sentiment for women apparently.

Timefortea4 · 27/10/2021 21:53

Has anyone explained why the male lesbians can't sleep with the other male lesbians? Isn't it transphobic of them to only pursue female lesbians?

Timefortea4 · 27/10/2021 21:55

Following all the criticism of the survey size I'm wondering what it would undertake research sufficiently robust to quash the critics. If there was a crowdfunder for that research I would donate. But isn't one of the issues that academic scrutiny of gender ideology is shut down?

Artichokeleaves · 27/10/2021 22:06

So many well made points here.

Intersectionality only matters when it benefits male humans
Inclusion only matters when it benefits males
Identity only matters when it benefits males
Language choices only matter when it benefits males
Tolerance only matters when it benefits males
It's only hate if to call it that benefits males
It's only prejudice if to call it that benefits males

At this point, it's fairly clear what the common denominator of all these illogical double standards is.

I have examined my prejudices thanks. I'm ok with being someone who does not believe that male people change sex, with being homosexual and exclusively attracted to biological females, and saying so. And not predicating my boundaries and my sexual needs and my feelings on what a male human may or may not prefer me to do.

Because that would be insanely misogynist.

PrincessNutella · 27/10/2021 22:10

"ciswiththeT" is yet another fine reason for me never to don the Cone of Shame that is Cis-dom.

Artichokeleaves · 27/10/2021 22:13

Just wondering - these poor people who don't believe in going with natural sexual attraction and accepting how unique and individual it is, and instead seeing sex as some kind of social justice activity to perform....?

Who exactly is being performed to? Are there points? Some kind of card to fill in? Is there some form of confession in which you are supervised in your current attractions to work out your prejudices and have you not yet provided sexual offers to that particular group?

And how exactly do those groups feel about being patronised in this way? I am probably about a three point score for being disabled, lesbian and mixed race.... frankly anyone wanting to offer me sex on any of those grounds as a social justice act that let's be honest, deep down translates as 'I will provide you with sex to demonstrate my virtue to society that I believe you are worthy despite those things' - is not someone I would ever find intimacy fun with.

Most people just want a relationship with someone honest and reciprocal and fun to be with, where there's a natural spark. Isn't this is off the top diving board of red flags for unhealthy relationships?

Enough4me · 27/10/2021 22:13

@Timefortea4

I love your post, would like it on the side of buses and bus stops:
"Has anyone explained why the male lesbians can't sleep with the other male lesbians? Isn't it transphobic of them to only pursue female lesbians?"

PrincessNutella · 27/10/2021 22:14

Trans women can't be trans women unless they are male, so what the fuck is there to talk about. It's a feature, not a bug. Lesbians don't want to have sex with males. It's people who pretend that trans women are women who are pretending that trans women don't exist. Trust me, we all know you are there.

Artichokeleaves · 27/10/2021 22:17

And are TW performing this social justice, sex isn't for enjoying but for demonstrating social purity thing? Straight men? Straight women? Or could this be a line that just lesbian females are fed because it serves a particular purpose?

CharlieParley · 27/10/2021 22:19

That Stonewall statement by Nancy Kelley is critical theory in action. Everything, absolutely everything must be cynically criticised until it falls apart. Including sexuality.

CharlieParley · 27/10/2021 22:20

Loving the quote allmywhat. Must dig out my copy again Grin

SteakExpectations · 27/10/2021 22:32

Stonewall’s position is quite clear. There’s no money to be made promoting lesbian rights. With Trans addenda, there’s training to provide, organisations and governments to advise, there’s power to exercise!

Fuck women.

Fuck women indeed. We are so fucked.

merrymouse · 27/10/2021 22:32

"I'd never have sex with a trans person" is not the same as "I would never have sex with a with a person whose sex is male/female". Trans status is irrelevant to the second statement.