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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Datun · 27/10/2021 19:01

@Vanishun

Nah, not buying it.

Anyone could say "no, never" to sex with a transgender woman or man under any circumstances.

This does not align them with actual transphobic people who (I assume?) would cheerfully bash someone's head in / want them gone / make their life a misery / call them awful names etc etc.

It is not "phobic" to say you would not have sexual contact with a group of people.

"Homophobia" is not a refusal to sleep with gay people after all. It's treating them badly because of their preferences.

Exactly. When did the test of homophobia, racism, or indeed even transphobia, be whether or not you would fuck the person.

It's absolute nonsense and very coercive.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 19:05

@Datun

Also, for the record, you can absolutely reject someone due to your own bigotry, or racism, or homophobia. You can reject someone for any bloody reason.
Yes, and I can absolutely judge someone who says "I'd never sleep with a black man" as a racist!

The point I seem to be making badly is that if someone ticks every box (right sex, weight, height, age, beliefs, personality) then you still have every right to reject them for any reason... but if ultimately the only reason you choose to give is that they are black or trans then you look like a bigot to me.

If you are rejecting them because you have a thing for straight blond hair then that's not racism. If you disagree with their insane TRA beliefs, or the way they adopt womanface and mock women, or because you avoid dating people with mental health issues, or because you don't date people whose gender expression matches yours even if they are of the right sex, then that's not transphobic. That is your preference and absolute right (as it is your right to be transphobic when dating!)

I can't see myself ever dating someone who is trans because I am pretty damn sure that zero or nearly zero trans people are going to meet my sexual preferences. But given many trans people meet the requirements of my sexual orientation, it is possible that some might be attractive to me.

[LASD goes off to look for a male-presenting, male bodied trans woman who is gender critical and has never had any surgeries or hormones.]

Am I actually saying that it is transphobic to rule out dating trans people, as trans can mean absolutely anything you want it to mean, so in theory your soul-mate could one day wake up, say "i'm trans" change nothing and you would be transphobic for dumping them solely for the reason that they said they were trans!

TeamRex · 27/10/2021 19:09

Also, for the record, you can absolutely reject someone due to your own bigotry, or racism, or homophobia. You can reject someone for any bloody reason.

This, many times over.

If Janine, however, were to say "I would never sleep with a trans woman under any circumstances. ... I wouldn't consider dating them because they identify as trans", then that starts looking a bit transphobic to me. It starts to look like the only reason to reject them is the trans thing.

It doesn't matter what you think. It's Janine's body and Janine can choose who she sleeps with.

She does not have to give reasons you think are okay for her decision to be respected.

Are you suggesting that you know better than Janine who should get access to her body?

ChloeCrocodile · 27/10/2021 19:10

VladmirsPoutine I’m glad it helped.

Now if only we could get stonewall to be clear with their distinctions. I suspect that they think that “same gender attraction” is an orientation (and therefore innate), but that “same sex attraction” is a preference. I obviously disagree!

PickAChew · 27/10/2021 19:11

A bisexual woman cannot do the same thing. They can't reject a TW for being the wrong sex. Obviously said bi-sexual woman can reject the TW for any reason or none, but they can't use the absolutely watertight "excuse" of "I don't fancy men".

This is ignoring that you can reject someone as a sexual partner for any reason, including them subscribing to a belief system that you don't, wanting different things from a potential relationship, values, personality, hobbies and interests, dress sense, the scent of their soap, the way they pronounce your name.....

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 27/10/2021 19:16

People need to read the 'Penetration Man' thread in Classics on here. Not only is it hilarious, but you also see a wide range of reasons that women decided that certain men/women were not the one them - being a Roxette fan is one reason, a 'sex briefcase' is another Grin

FlyingOink · 27/10/2021 19:16

Yes, and I can absolutely judge someone who says "I'd never sleep with a black man" as a racist!
Then
If you are rejecting them because you have a thing for straight blond hair then that's not racism.

How do these two sentences go together?

Datun · 27/10/2021 19:18

LaetitiaASD

Datun
Also, for the record, you can absolutely reject someone due to your own bigotry, or racism, or homophobia. You can reject someone for any bloody reason.

"Yes, and I can absolutely judge someone who says "I'd never sleep with a black man" as a racist!"

Don't be so silly.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 19:18

@TeamRex

Also, for the record, you can absolutely reject someone due to your own bigotry, or racism, or homophobia. You can reject someone for any bloody reason.

This, many times over.

If Janine, however, were to say "I would never sleep with a trans woman under any circumstances. ... I wouldn't consider dating them because they identify as trans", then that starts looking a bit transphobic to me. It starts to look like the only reason to reject them is the trans thing.

It doesn't matter what you think. It's Janine's body and Janine can choose who she sleeps with.

She does not have to give reasons you think are okay for her decision to be respected.

Are you suggesting that you know better than Janine who should get access to her body?

No, I am saying that I will judge Janine for being racist if the only reason she gives for not sleeping with Bill is that Bill is black. I will still respect her decision not to sleep with Bill, obviously. If she'd just said "no" then I wouldn't have judged her for being racist because I wouldn't have known her reason!
FlyingOink · 27/10/2021 19:19

No, I am saying that I will judge Janine for being racist if the only reason she gives for not sleeping with Bill is that Bill is black. I will still respect her decision not to sleep with Bill, obviously. If she'd just said "no" then I wouldn't have judged her for being racist because I wouldn't have known her reason!

But it's OK if she says it's because she doesn't like his hair?

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 19:21

@PickAChew

A bisexual woman cannot do the same thing. They can't reject a TW for being the wrong sex. Obviously said bi-sexual woman can reject the TW for any reason or none, but they can't use the absolutely watertight "excuse" of "I don't fancy men".

This is ignoring that you can reject someone as a sexual partner for any reason, including them subscribing to a belief system that you don't, wanting different things from a potential relationship, values, personality, hobbies and interests, dress sense, the scent of their soap, the way they pronounce your name.....

One last post, then I'm out...

I said "Obviously said bi-sexual woman can reject the TW for any reason"

How is this "ignoring that you can reject someone as a sexual partner for any reason" as you said?

Please apologise for your lack of reading skills (I had to do the same earlier to someone who I totally misread!)

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 27/10/2021 19:22

I see we're still hung up on the idea that you have to sleep with people to demonstrate your acceptance of them.

seems a rather bizarre policy

VladmirsPoutine · 27/10/2021 19:23

Flying What's the alternative? To police thoughts.

FlyingOink · 27/10/2021 19:23

Also what is more likely, that someone says "I will not sleep with Bill because he is black" or "I don't fancy Bill"?
It might be that Janine doesn't fancy any black men, and that's fine. She might not fancy short men either. She doesn't have to unlearn any of that.
Bill doesn't lose out by not getting to shag a racist.
It's not the same as Janine refusing to promote him because he is black.
Janine doesn't owe Bill her body, no matter how nice he might be and no matter what her reason for not wanting him is.

FlyingOink · 27/10/2021 19:24

@VladmirsPoutine

Flying What's the alternative? To police thoughts.
Alternative to what, sorry I don't know what your question is in relation to
LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 19:31

@FlyingOink

No, I am saying that I will judge Janine for being racist if the only reason she gives for not sleeping with Bill is that Bill is black. I will still respect her decision not to sleep with Bill, obviously. If she'd just said "no" then I wouldn't have judged her for being racist because I wouldn't have known her reason!

But it's OK if she says it's because she doesn't like his hair?

It does start getting complicated !!!!

If someone says that they hate tightly curled hair, especially black hair, and they love straight blond hair there is a strong hint at racism going on!!!!

I suppose my point is that it's probably best to keep your reasons for rejecting someone private! Whilst it is perfectly acceptable to dislike black tightly curled hair in sexual partners, and perfectly acceptable to reject anyone with a gender identity (even if in every single other way they are perfect for you), and obviously more than perfectly acceptable for a lesbian to reject a TW because TWAM... it's probably best not to go around saying "I never sleep with black men" or "I'd never sleep with a trans person".

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 19:31

If Janine does not experience sexual arousal (including, but not limited to, vaginal lubrication, and vaginal tenting- the equivalentof a male erection) when she sees a certain type of human, then what's in it for her to have sex with him or her?

OP posts:
VladmirsPoutine · 27/10/2021 19:32

Flying to
"But it's OK if she says it's because she doesn't like his hair?"

In other words accepting what people say at face value.

Sophoclesthefox · 27/10/2021 19:33

Bill doesn't lose out by not getting to shag a racist

Exactly.

I have no interest in interrogating either my sexual preferences or my sexual orientation and I make this face Hmm at people who get terribly excited about making everyone do so. People’s internal reflections on their sexuality are for themselves alone.

None of this has any impact on my unwavering support for gay, lesbian and bisexual people to pursue consensual loving relationships with people of the same or the opposite sex, and any race, gender identity, BMI, religion or any other characteristic they see fit.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2021 19:35

vaginal tenting

Shock

I am going to have to look this up in my Usborne book of Biology!

VladmirsPoutine · 27/10/2021 19:35

it's probably best not to go around saying "I never sleep with black men" or "I'd never sleep with a trans person".

I agree. I have certain thoughts that would probably make me a social pariah if I aired them so it's best to just keep them to myself.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 19:38

@FlyingOink

Also what is more likely, that someone says "I will not sleep with Bill because he is black" or "I don't fancy Bill"? It might be that Janine doesn't fancy any black men, and that's fine. She might not fancy short men either. She doesn't have to unlearn any of that. Bill doesn't lose out by not getting to shag a racist. It's not the same as Janine refusing to promote him because he is black. Janine doesn't owe Bill her body, no matter how nice he might be and no matter what her reason for not wanting him is.
100%. She will likely simply say "I don't fancy Bill".

I think you might have helped me realise what I am trying to get at.

GC people saying that they would not sleep with trans people is really unhelpful (at best), just like Janine telling Bill that she's a racist is really unhelpful (at best)

The point here (in this cotton ceiling debate) is that people are being rejected because they are the wrong sex. That is all the reason a TW should need to hear from a lesbian, and it is homophobic to say another word on the matter.

The fact that the lesbian also has a 100% non-negotiatable right to reject the TW "just because, none of your business" is secondary.

Entitled rapey TW need to have both of those things rammed down their throat, as both, separately, are 100% valid with no further comment necessary.

TheHoneyBadger · 27/10/2021 19:43

There is no but. It's outrageous and pretty much all of my responses and feelings have been expressed eloquently by others (and perfectly by the gorgeous MB and yes I miss her videos too).

Stonewall really fucked it up when they insisted on the TWAW mantra. I wonder if deep down they realise that? Once they take that line they have thrown sexuality under the bus along with all of all women's boundaries and rights.

The implications were vast and obvious to many of us even a decade ago where the rise of trans ideology leads to for the groups protected under sex and sexuality. And here we are with them basically advocating conversion therapy and putting the word BUT after a sentence affirming the importance of consent.

DuesToTheDirt · 27/10/2021 19:45

People are entitled to write off whoever they want when it comes to sexual partners and dating. For whatever reasons they want.

Absolutely. Whether this is because the other person is trans, or not trans, or bald, or fat, or thin, or has a hairy back, is from a different country, has a different religion, has big ears, absolutely anything from important features to trivial ones. If you don't want to sleep with someone for any reason at all that's ok.

TheHoneyBadger · 27/10/2021 19:46

The point here (in this cotton ceiling debate) is that people are being rejected because they are the wrong sex. That is all the reason a TW should need to hear from a lesbian, and it is homophobic to say another word on the matter

No, I'm afraid you're missing the point a bit there because under the TWAW ideology they are not the wrong sex and this is utter transphobia. That's the trouble. The ideology and activism has attempted to remove all loopholes - they can't now say it's ok for lesbians not to have sex with tw because they're they're not women because they've pumped all their energy into saying TWAW no debate.

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