BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

Men being entitled to sex.. how surprising. No matter what men wear or identify as they are still hardwired to be men. That DNA is something you can’t fight. Men often act entitled to sex and will resort to gaslighting tactics and manipulation to get sex. All women know this and that’s why we have safeguards and edit our lives to avoid situations where we might be pressured into sex. Or at least we try to avoid these situations.

Men lying ala Wayne couzens, rape, sexual coercion, spiking drinks.. the list goes on as tko how far men will go to get sex from women. So this behaviour is in line with abusive men who feel entitled to access tk women’s body for sex.

Also… Stonewall is racist and homophobic. Why include people of colour when talking about this? It’s amazingly offensive todo this. As if your partner is a person of colour, then you should be ok to date a trans person. How is this ok?

Good grief, that article is excellent as far as I've read it - got as far as Stonewall's statement.

Change is definitely afoot.

Great to see this on the mainstream websites.

Solidarity with my lesbian sisters. As someone pointed out upthread, everyone has the right to have sex, or not have sex, based on any criteria. Dodgy shoes, a bad haircut, BO, too tall/too short, speaks with their mouth full...

Well 'lesbians' is trending on twitter, with the usual men dismissing it (Independent journo Adam Smith) and the usual handmaidens likening it to racism (Novara media journo Ash Sarkar)

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

Stonewall: “Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.“

This is conversion therapy by any other name isn’t it? “if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like men, or women, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.” So sexuality is nurture not nature and we can all be shaped out of it.

I think this is a really important point. Are stonewall saying that a person's sexual preference can be created by societal pressure?

And also, surely some people are just not attracted to fat/skinny, white/black, etc etc because that's just how attraction works! Some people have a "type" and others not so much.

There are a lot of men on twitter very unhappy with this article

Further reading for the newly peaked

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/02/lesbian-women-talk-about-meeting-transbians-on-women-only-dating-sites/

@MedusasBadHairDay

Absolutely blows my mind that Stonewall, a supposedly LGBT charity, is arguing that not wanting to date a specific demographic is bigoted. Surely they can see that by that logic gay men are awful bigots for not dating women? Isn't that exactly what they used to campaign against? Are they now campaigning for L&G people to "just try" being straight?

I remember when I first heard about the cotton ceiling and being sickened by it, but at least reassured it wasn't mainstream, but if stonewall support it? Ffs.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3458395-Looks-like-the-National-Lottery-and-Stonewall-have-picked-a-side-in-the-cotton-ceiling-debate

TWEET
LGB Alliance @ALLIANCELGB
Good to see our national broadcaster addressing the sexual harassment and bullying experienced by many young lesbians. For too long this important issue has been ignored by the mainstream media. Powerful comments by our own @BevJacksonAuth. Brave piece by Caroline Lowbridge.

So Ash is upset that this was a small survey of 80 people - can't draw any conclusions from that. But a survey of about 27 people is enough to say trans identified people are a huge risk of suicide

Right

Well done Caroline!

Something has definitely shifted at the BBC. Stephen Nolan said that lots of staff told him that they felt unable to discuss these issues.

FEEDBACK TO BBC, LET THEM KNOW WHAT YOU THINK

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/comments-feedback/#/Your%20comment

The myriad ways in which men have pressured women into sex.

But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

Why though? It’s not in any way in my interest to “include” more people in my sex life. My preferences currently exclude the entire population of Earth, minus one, and that works great. Obviously if you’re having trouble finding a date, then “examining your preferences” or whatever is a sensible thing to do. Or if you keep ending up in bad relationships. But if that’s not the case then why not keep doing what works?

Clearly Stonewall are confused on this point because they think women are sexual resources to be distributed to men, and not people.

The tone deaf comment by Kelly of Stonewall exemplifies their systematic lack of understanding of safeguarding and disrespect for women's rights to have boundaries and to say no.

Yet this organisation is in so many schools promoting these beliefs to children. Terrifying .

I wrote this post a few days ago about the gaslighting inherent in Cotton Ceiling arguments and am unsurprised to find the same gaslighting in the reactions to this post. People claiming the cotton ceiling is not a thing, that 'nobody is forcing you to sleep with us', etc.

Looks like 'believe women' stops being a thing when the women are saying inconvenient things.

Kelley's argument is a reword of Srinivasan's Right to Sex where she problematises the nature of desire in a way that would banish any flicker of desire that you ever felt again if you scrutinised it in such a fashion

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus well said. I don't know how any of these AGP-enabling women get any fun out of sex, my god. They make it into such a job.

Are stonewall saying that a person's sexual preference can be created by societal pressure?

They certainly appear to be. Which is very odd because for decades they (rightly) campaigned against the toxic notion that homosexuality is something that can be ‘caught’, learned, or adopted after being promoted by society. Section 28 was based on that very idea.

@NecessaryScene

Another possible follow-up is explaining why the BBC felt the need to edit these words:

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

Yes - it has its effect.

My DH had already read this article on the BBC when I saw it and understood that it was about coerced sex.

He didn't understand, until I pointed out the language used, that it was 'corrective rape', and then it became obvious.

It is corrective rape in new packaging. The language used is the gift wrap. Changing the pronouns used changes the way you see things.

Corrective rape is a shocking concept and people compartmentalise it away from the banal and everyday. But the banal and everyday world is where it exists.

@FindTheTruth

Well 'lesbians' is trending on twitter, with the usual men dismissing it (Independent journo Adam Smith) and the usual handmaidens likening it to racism (Novara media journo Ash Sarkar)

I'm surprised Ayo is going there. Didn't her mate LOJ admit he only fancied men with dicks?

Oh yes, he scoffed at the idea that a gay man would have performed cunnilingus because obviously that's only something that you do if you're having sex with a woman.

WHAT ABOUT MEN WITH VAGINAS OWEN?

This is Owen Jones, reacting to a long piece that includes one woman' account of being raped.

This is the exact same reasoning used by MRAs who say there is no evidence for the prosecution to discredit rape trials: yes there is, because the complainant's account is witness evidence.

It's beyond belief that the BBC published such unbelievably appalling journalism, based on no reliable data and the testimonies of anti-trans activists.

You'd expect to find this sort of conspiratorial hate on the darkest recesses of the internet, not on the BBC.

Because rape victims and women sexually harassed are being negative about the perpetrators, they are anti-trans, according to Owen. Which means their statements can be dismissed.

@Chrysanthemum5

So Ash is upset that this was a small survey of 80 people - can't draw any conclusions from that. But a survey of about 27 people is enough to say trans identified people are a huge risk of suicide

Right

I really admired Caroline and those who ran the survey stating, very clearly, that this was a non-probabilistic sample but was useful for the accounts it collected (they phrased it much better than that).

It's proved impossible to get otherwise sensible, evidence-based people to accept that about the other survey in question and the meaningfulness of 27 people and the appropriate comparator.

I don't know how any of these AGP-enabling women get any fun out of sex, my god. They make it into such a job.

Handmaiden extraordinaire Sarkar’s bio used to say “fucks like a champion” which made me feel so sorry for her. Imagine thinking sex is a competition. (A competition with other women, presumably? Or is she like the I WON! guy from Friends?)

Although I agree with what they’re saying - I probably wouldn’t want to be with a ‘man’ if I later found out they had a vagina whether they are M-F or F-M but I’m struggling to see how someone is forced into having sex with someone (unless physically raped).

I get that they would ‘out’ them as being transphobic but I personally don’t think that would be enough for me to have sex with someone I don’t want to.
Same as if someone from a different race wanted to have sex with me and threatened to call me racist I’d just tell them to F off.

It is rape
It's physiological threats and manipulation
It is rape

Good article, I really feel for the women that said they went along with having sex with tran women so as not to be called transphobic. No matter how attractive a man was and how well we got on, if I found out he was a biological she and had a vag I would have zero interest in having sex.

It is in no way transphobic for a lesbian woman to not want to have sex with a trans woman. And any trans woman (bio man) who manipulates a lesbian into having sex is a dirt bag, and if like in the article it is forced, well that is rape.

You cannot help who you are or are not attracted to. And no one should have to apologies for it either!