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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC article about cotton ceiling

999 replies

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 26/10/2021 09:54

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

OP posts:
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FrancescaContini · 26/10/2021 12:02

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

It’s incel behaviour, just wrapped up in different packaging.
I’ve thought this for a long time now.

Great article. Thank God.

I think that the podcast on Stonewall has been an enormous, long overdue wake up call.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 26/10/2021 12:03

I get that they would ‘out’ them as being transphobic but I personally don’t think that would be enough for me to have sex with someone I don’t want to.

I wonder if it's not necessarily being outed by one person, for some young, uncertain people, it's the loss of their entire support network and the community that gives them their sense of identity.

suedonym.substack.com/p/played-the-fool

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/10/2021 12:03

I am Shock that Stonewall wrote that in a prepared statement. Can they genuinely not hear themselves?

Datun · 26/10/2021 12:04

I think this is a really important point. Are stonewall saying that a person's sexual preference can be created by societal pressure?

They are. Exactly that. And by the same token that it can also be unlearned.

So much for Born This Way.

Datun · 26/10/2021 12:04

Interesting how your sexual orientation to be unlearned, but not your gender identity.

Vanishun · 26/10/2021 12:04

I am torn between being stunned at the BBC for finally talking about this - and so sick for Chloe and women like her.

I mean, I've read accounts like that on Reddit in the past and it isn't a surprise as such, but it never fails to revolt me.

Clymene · 26/10/2021 12:05

@WonderfulYou

Although I agree with what they’re saying - I probably wouldn’t want to be with a ‘man’ if I later found out they had a vagina whether they are M-F or F-M but I’m struggling to see how someone is forced into having sex with someone (unless physically raped).

I get that they would ‘out’ them as being transphobic but I personally don’t think that would be enough for me to have sex with someone I don’t want to.
Same as if someone from a different race wanted to have sex with me and threatened to call me racist I’d just tell them to F off.

You don't think being coerced into sex is rape? You're wrong
Vanishun · 26/10/2021 12:05

"Creepy men who sexualise and rape lesbians" is a tale as old as time of course.

Vanishun · 26/10/2021 12:05

Coercion is rape.

PankhurstConnection · 26/10/2021 12:06

Did anyone archive the article - it appears to have crashed for now - or maybe it is just me.

Whatwouldscullydo · 26/10/2021 12:06

I amthat Stonewall wrote that in a prepared statement. Can they genuinely not hear themselves?

They have no choice di they. I.mean this is the logical conclusion. To say anything else would have them branded as transphobic and that's them out of a job. Especially as they no longer work to support the lgb. The T is all they are about now. They lose that they lose everything.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/10/2021 12:07

@WonderfulYou

Although I agree with what they’re saying - I probably wouldn’t want to be with a ‘man’ if I later found out they had a vagina whether they are M-F or F-M but I’m struggling to see how someone is forced into having sex with someone (unless physically raped).

I get that they would ‘out’ them as being transphobic but I personally don’t think that would be enough for me to have sex with someone I don’t want to.
Same as if someone from a different race wanted to have sex with me and threatened to call me racist I’d just tell them to F off.

It's the same mechanism as any other kind of emotional manipulation to get sex, except backed up by an external peer-group.

It's "you're a pricktease/frigid/" or "if you really loved me..." on steroids. Now it's backed up by the threat of complete social ostracism.

extract from elsewhere

I few years ago, I used to play a MMORPG in which I joined a LGBT guild because I wanted a place where I could be myself without risking being harassed or bullied if people found out that I am a lesbian. I had a great time in this guild and made a lot of friends.

"About 3 months after I joined, a transwoman in the guild sent me a private message in-game asking if I would be interested in dating her. I politely declined. She asked if it was because she was trans and I said yes. I tried to explain as nicely and politely as possible that I just can’t deal with penises, male bodies, and male voices. I just can’t find them attractive, especially penises because just seeing them brings up memories of when I was raped as a child. She demanded that I date her anyway and threatened to tell everyone in the guild that I was transphobic if I didn’t. She also demanded that I send her nude pictures of myself. I refused. I took screenshots of the chat log just in-case, logged off, and went to bed feeling awful.

"While I was asleep, the transwoman did exactly what she said she would do. She told the guild’s leader that she asked me for make-up advice and that I responded by saying she could never look like a real woman and that I had called her a bunch of slurs. When I turned my PC on the next day, I was greeted by a message from the guild leader in the guild’s group chat on Skype (this was before Discord existed) that I was going to be removed from the guild because of my alleged transphobia. I denied it and a few of the other members came to my defense, saying it didn’t seem like something I would do, as I was always very friendly to everyone. I sent the screenshots of the chat log thinking it would clear my name,since she straight up said she was going to lie about me. Instead of focusing on that, the discussion shifted to me refusing to date her. I was told, by people that had been my friends for months, that my “genital preference” was transphobic and that I should just get over my trauma or just kill myself. I was told that even if I am not attracted to her, I have to date her to affirm her identity as a trans lesbian. I was given an ultimatum, date her or be removed from the guild. I refused and was kicked out

PankhurstConnection · 26/10/2021 12:07

I think it is the whole BBC site as I can't get to anything. So hopefully not the article being removed.

ScreamingMeMeSawUs · 26/10/2021 12:07

Wow that's a great article.

And wtf Stonewall? Wtf.

FindTheTruth · 26/10/2021 12:07

Yet this organisation is in so many schools promoting these beliefs to children. Terrifying .

Stonewall sent this person into schools as a 'lesbian' gaslighting girls. Can you imagine being a pre-lesbian girl faced with this thinking, that's not me and I must be something else?

BBC article about cotton ceiling
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 26/10/2021 12:09

Hallelujah!!! I almost can’t believe my eyes, that that report has appeared on the BBC website.

Vive la résistance!

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 26/10/2021 12:09

@PankhurstConnection

I think it is the whole BBC site as I can't get to anything. So hopefully not the article being removed.
This might depend on different servers - the article and site are there for me.

Also worth noting that someone has already archived it at web.archive.org

Mollyollydolly · 26/10/2021 12:10

No wonder Nancy Kelley keeps quiet. That Stonewall response is quite something.

Alektopteryx · 26/10/2021 12:10

@PankhurstConnection

Did anyone archive the article - it appears to have crashed for now - or maybe it is just me.
Yes, it's been archived and pp has linked above. The first thing I did on reading it was checked it had been archived Grin but it's a shame we have to think like that. The article currently seems fine for me, although it's slipped down the BBC most popular ranking and is now in second place.
Datun · 26/10/2021 12:10

But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

Also this deceitful gaslighting conflation of sexual preference with sexual orientation.

Sexual orientation is based on what sex you are. And it's protected by law.

Dismissing sexual partners based on anything else is sexual preference.

Plus, the despicable manipulation of using disability, race and size, because they know people are reluctant to state those preferences, in case they are called racist, disableist or fat shaming.

And they think people don't notice.

WhoWants2Know · 26/10/2021 12:12

I wonder if the article is crashing because it's caused a bit of a storm.

mumsiedarlingrevolta · 26/10/2021 12:13

@GingerAndTheBiscuits the link in your original post still working.

I know because I have clicked on it 3 times to re-read in delight!!

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/10/2021 12:13

I think many straight women have experienced sexual pressure from coercive boyfriends. Men who wanted to lose their virginity before the woman was ready, or men who didn't want to use condoms.

It's not as easy as it should be for young women to tell such men to sling their hook, and that's when you won't lose your friends for dumping him.

Another account.

Content Warning: experiences of homophobia, lesbophobia and racism.

account

"I’ve been officially out as a butch lesbian since the early 00’s (and my fam knew before then, like it was a surprise to no one even as a kid in the 90’s lmao). I’m black and the community I grew up in is/was super religious. I mean old school FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FOR SINNERS kind of shit.

"The opposition I faced with that is nothing, N-O-T-H-I-N-G compared to the hatred, contempt, and homophobia encountered when dealing with the trans community. I have been fighting this fight for years only to be told I’m lying. No waaaay a man would really tell you to suck dick and a bunch of women would cheer them on and blame YOU for not being inclusive it’s happening. No waaaay that’s true!

"Oh, you have proof?

"Well, um, those aren’t REAL transwomen.

"Really? Not a single one of those people is a “real” transwoman?:www.lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/

"I have lost so many friends, some of them whom I’ve known since elementary school, to this cult. People who watched me get jumped and bullied in school numerous times, literally spit on at protests, and disowned by a huge chunk of my family because I stood up for my right to marry another woman someday. They went on to call me a bigot, transphobe, TERF (ironically I’d never heard this term until I was called it), the list goes on.

"When we got the right to marry and could no longer be denied other basic rights in the US, I figured the next logical step would be to focus on homosexuals in other places where they are still in literal danger; I assumed we would listen to them and see what we could do to help them obtain those rights too.

"Instead we ended up with this. Instead I had to fight the same exact fights again, but this time against the people who were once my friends.

"For a little while, I was spared some viciousness compared to white women because BLM was the hot take and no one wanted to be perceived as a racist. I watched the nicest woman I knew, who fosters animals and children and literally would not hurt a fly, be called Karen and told to kill herself while the aggressor was cheered on. All because she didn’t want to have sex with a male.

"As for my former immunity, that’s not been the case for a while. I have been called the N-word and other slurs while my own friends are only concerned I don’t “misgender” the person using them."

Source here:oursuperstories.com/i-have-been-fighting-this-fight-for-years-only-to-be-told-im-lying/

oakleaffy · 26/10/2021 12:14

How grim and depressing.
There was a Transwoman in Australia who attacked two shoppers with an axe as he had been turned down by a Lesbian

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/10/2021 12:14

Um not sure why that emoticon is there!

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