Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC article about cotton ceiling

999 replies

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 26/10/2021 09:54

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
RedToothBrush · 26/10/2021 20:52

@CatherinaJTV

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success. It's sad to see the decline of a once proud institution into Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging.
Yep those 80 women should shut the fuck up about rape and sexual coercion because talking about it is bigotted.

Okkkkkaayyyyy.

The article refers directly to the weakness of the survey and even the author of the survey comments on its weakness. They don't try and dress it up as being more meaningful than to say 'there is an issue here, that we aren't allowed to talk about even though its causing real harm because political correctness is preventing us and thats adding to the problem because no one is willing to acknowledge it, much less tackle it.'

Generally when there is a problem - even in controversial areas - we can still talk about it, albeit in a sensitive and considered manner. Which this article is doing; I note at this point it actively also talked to transwomen who though this was appalling and knew it was going on to friends but even they were finding it difficult to talk about openly and speak out about how others are abusing and silencing women using the trans trojan horse at their expense.

Then Stonewall come in like a bull in a china shop, demanding everyone to stop being nasty to transwomen ^even though the transwomen in the article are saying we should acknowledge and address the problem, but are being prevented from doing so by extreme activism and instititional level silencing. Thus demostrating in part what the lesbians and transwomen in the article are both saying is at the heart of the problem and allows law abiding and respectful transwomen to be tarred with the same brush as the rape apologist authoritarians who want the nasty lesbians to STFU and reframe their socially constructed sexual orientation and suck cock to demonstrate they aren't bigotted.

It has to be pointed out that there isn't any Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging here. There are a bunch of women and transwomen talking about their experience and disgust at rape culture within extreme trans activism and Stonewall come along and illustrate the same point very clearly themselves.

All thats happened is someone is pissed that the slick PR and bullying by Stonewall didn't do its job and silence people this time, and instead there are questions being asked about who is pushing this (given that a lot of trans activists aren't actually trans themselves) and why is there such a homophobic and lesbophobic stench eminating from Stonewall itself. Quite aside from the other question about just how common this is and whether there is a good case to do a wide study to try and get a better idea of the scale of this abuse.

I think there are parallels here with the recent unearthing of abuses of power by police officers targeting vulnerable women for sexual purposes and the Weinstein case. Women, not being believed and having to fight the power of a large institutional force or body otherwise they are discredited and how their reputations damaged.

Stonewall could have handled this so, so much better. The fact they have responded so appallingly is indeed very much a key part of the story and reinforces the entire point.

You can't blame the BBC for Stonewall dropping the ball so spectularly.

CharlieParley · 26/10/2021 20:52

@BigHeartyTruffle

At no point do I deny that this has happened, or that it is abhorrent.

I still stand by my desire to use rigorous methods to understand the scale of this problem, in the context of the scale of other problems facing women. That doesn’t mean I think any of this is ok.

That's the argument "we have far worse problems, why worry about that", just dressed up differently. I'm again puzzled why that is your response, if, as you claim, you find it so abhorrent.

1.) This isn't about women in general, but lesbian women. So at the very least your frame of reference for deciding whether this is serious enough to warrant spending any time on it should be lesbian women.

2.) Best data available shows that's about 1 to 2% of all women. So we're already talking about a much smaller number of women (ca 26 million adult women in the UK, that gives us roughly half a million lesbian women). The problem is also much more prevalent amongst younger lesbians, that's only about 200,000 in the 18 to 34 age group.

3.) Given that there are so few young lesbians across the UK, it won't surprise you to know that it's not the easiest undertaking for them to find a partner. Lesbian clubs are gone, a lot, if not all, lesbian-only spaces are gone. Dating apps for lesbians are no longer for lesbians only and what happens if a lesbians objects to that is explained in the article.

4.) At the very least 45 testimonies from just one survey suggests this is a problem that should not be ignored. As the coercion they report is only one issue facing lesbians right now - alongside the disappearance of lesbian public spaces, intolerance in many LGBT groups against exclusively same-sex attracted females and the dating app situation - I would argue that it is an interconnected problem of an important enough scale that it warrants being taken seriously.

  1. I know young lesbians both IRL and online who have told me about this having happened to them. They are not included in that survey. I also know many grassroots women's rights groups are being contacted regularly by lesbians sharing such experiences (and that this issue is one reason why many of these groups have lesbians as founders, co-founders or members). So I already know that a representative survey would show this problem is not rare.

What are your experiences with this issue that you seem to believe it is not important enough compared to others?

P.S. I'm neither lesbian nor immersed in lesbian culture nor do I have a lot of lesbians in my social circle. I'm also the wrong age. And yet I have met more than a handful of lesbians who were abused or ostracised for rejecting advances made by males who identify as trans. That suggests to me I probably underestimate the scale of this issue.

Datun · 26/10/2021 20:52

Also CatherinaJTV, you might want to reconsider your use of the word biased when referring to 80 women who have been coerced into sex.

biased
/ˈbʌɪəst/

unfairly prejudiced for or against someone or something.

Unless, of course, you do think it is wrong for them to frame their narrative as prejudicial and unfair.

CorvusPurpureus · 26/10/2021 20:58

Compliment sent.

3 actually. My lesbian dd & her non gender conforming but very much female sister also wanted to have their say.

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2021 20:59

Is it homophobic of a women to refuse to sleep with a lesbian if she wants it but the women is heteosexual?

Is it homophobic of a man to refuse to sleep with a gay man if he wants it but he's heteosexual?

So why is it transphobic of a lesbian to refuse to sleep with a transwoman with a penis who is of the opposite sex and therefore heteosexual regardless of the gender they identify?

The whole point is lesbians don't do dick. Cos they are homosexual not heteosexual. Forcing them to do so or condemning them if they don't is homophobic.

Why does 'transphobia' somehow trump actual homophobia when lesbians are involved? Why does what the dick says reign supreme?

Rainbowshit · 26/10/2021 20:59

Have sent a positive comment to the bbc.

Angrysaurus · 26/10/2021 21:00

@Gmom

I imagine people are complaining to BBC that the article further stigmatises trans people who are an oppressed group of people who are sometimes subject to violence and/or driven to suicide due to bullying or lack of acceptance or poor healthcare etc. While this may be true and very sad, it shouldn't mean that radical trans ideology is above criticism.
It's not true, there is plenty of evidence that these things are not true. The healthcare one I'll give them.
logsonlogsoff · 26/10/2021 21:01

80 people on a Twitter poll Set up by someone whose followers almost certainly agree with their views isn’t good enough.
This just discredits the whole article.

logsonlogsoff · 26/10/2021 21:04

‘ So why is it transphobic of a lesbian to refuse to sleep with a transwoman with a penis who is of the opposite sex and therefore heteosexual regardless of the gender they identify? ’

It’s not. And outside of a core of trans activists on SM no-one in RL in the queer world thinks it is. Another lesbian here saying it’s bullshit, and the supposed cotton ceiling is a made up BS Term that activists on both sides like to scream about but which isn’t a thing in the real world for us queers.

malloo · 26/10/2021 21:05

This is amazing to see on the BBC, I've sent positive feedback

MintTeaLady · 26/10/2021 21:08

Milli Hill has had a post with a screenshot of the BBC article removed by Instagram for violating community standards for hate speech or symbols!

OldCrone · 26/10/2021 21:08

@logsonlogsoff

80 people on a Twitter poll Set up by someone whose followers almost certainly agree with their views isn’t good enough. This just discredits the whole article.
How?

Are the personal testimonies of the lesbians and the transwomen they spoke to completely negated by the inclusion of a poll as part of a relatively long article?

Can you explain how that works?

LizzieSiddal · 26/10/2021 21:09

logsonlogsoff

80 people on a Twitter poll Set up by someone whose followers almost certainly agree with their views isn’t good enough.
This just discredits the whole article.

You obviously haven’t read the article or this thread.

RockPaperScience · 26/10/2021 21:09

Positive feedback sent.

The article now seems to be buried away on the website, I can only track it down by the link in the OP.

TambourineofRighteousness · 26/10/2021 21:10

[quote dapsnotplimsolls]Apologies if this has already been posted but I saw this on twitter today in response to Ash's tweet - it debunks the suicide stats

thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/[/quote]
Thank you for the link. I forgot to bookmark it when I first read it.

For those who haven't got time to read the full article, this is the key summary to keep in mind:

"Even though we’ve seen a sharp rise in the number of people who identify as transgender in the last few years, a trans person hasn’t been murdered in the UK for nearly three years and there are, for example, no reports ever of a trans person in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland being murdered.

Moreover, not one of even the eleven people Transrespect says were murdered, were killed due to “transphobia”. The victim in each case was typically murdered by a male sexual partner due to drugs or money issues. None were killed by a woman — and one was killed by a man who identifies as a woman."

And on the hate crime stats:

"Another report revealed that police officers are victims of hate crime incidents in almost half of all hate crime prosecutions. This presumably includes the young man with autism who made the mistake of asking a trans-identified female police officer, “Are you a boy or a girl?” He was convicted. Perhaps it’s time to retry the 2003 case of the teenager who asked a mounted policeman, “Is your horse gay?”

Despite all this nonsense, of the five monitored strands that the police record as hate crimes, the transgender category has, every year, and by some distance, seen the least number of “hate crimes” against it. In fact, religion — the next-lowest — saw nearly three times as many incidents in the last recording year."

OldCrone · 26/10/2021 21:12

@logsonlogsoff

‘ So why is it transphobic of a lesbian to refuse to sleep with a transwoman with a penis who is of the opposite sex and therefore heteosexual regardless of the gender they identify? ’

It’s not. And outside of a core of trans activists on SM no-one in RL in the queer world thinks it is. Another lesbian here saying it’s bullshit, and the supposed cotton ceiling is a made up BS Term that activists on both sides like to scream about but which isn’t a thing in the real world for us queers.

So all the people the journalist interviewed for this are liars according to you?

But why did Stonewall make their statement saying that lesbians were showing prejudice for not wanting to have sex with someone with a penis if this isn't happening? Are Stonewall part of the 'core of transactivists on SM'?

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2021 21:12

@MintTeaLady

Milli Hill has had a post with a screenshot of the BBC article removed by Instagram for violating community standards for hate speech or symbols!
That would be Instagram that is happily hosting an account set up specifically to hound and harass Kathleen Stock, yes?

How surprising.

LobsterNapkin · 26/10/2021 21:13

They haven't read it, or are misrepresenting. The article is quite clear that t's been difficult to find data on the issue, so what is available is a lot of anecdotal experiences, and a survey that's limited in scope.

But these are the kinds of things that should lead to some better research. Because often, when you are haring a lot of people complaining about the same thing, it's because something is really going on.

But the other element of the article is the various examples of the whole thinking around the cotton ceiling from various activists, and from SW itself. And that is not something that can be backed away from - these people have actually supported the POV that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

That's the story. SW thinks genital preferences are transphobic.

TurquoiseBaubles · 26/10/2021 21:13

Have I missed mention of Linda Riley of Diva Magazine? She must be exhausted hiding replies. She has now had to limit further replies to people she follows.

twitter.com/LindaRiley8/status/1453002753891086366

twitter.com/LindaRiley8/status/1453002753891086366/hidden

FindTheTruth · 26/10/2021 21:15

@MintTeaLady

Milli Hill has had a post with a screenshot of the BBC article removed by Instagram for violating community standards for hate speech or symbols!
Perhaps evidence like this can be shared with MPs, Lords, Parliament re the new online harms bill and extensive new powers OfCom are getting....
Sn0tnose · 26/10/2021 21:15

Positive feedback sent.

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2021 21:15

That's the story. SW thinks genital preferences are transphobic.

Yes. I'm surprised that the posters on here dismissing the accounts of lesbians in the piece are not apparently addressing this point.

I mean, I'm not. But you know. Show willing.

OperationDessertStorm · 26/10/2021 21:15

@logsonlogsoff

‘ So why is it transphobic of a lesbian to refuse to sleep with a transwoman with a penis who is of the opposite sex and therefore heteosexual regardless of the gender they identify? ’

It’s not. And outside of a core of trans activists on SM no-one in RL in the queer world thinks it is. Another lesbian here saying it’s bullshit, and the supposed cotton ceiling is a made up BS Term that activists on both sides like to scream about but which isn’t a thing in the real world for us queers.

I notice you say queer instead of same sex attracted.
Do you think TW can call themselves lesbians and attend lesbian events and speak on behalf of the lesbian community and win lesbian awards? My lesbian friends have been kicked out of LGBT groups for insisting they’re same sex attracted - do you think that’s an issue?
MarshmallowSwede · 26/10/2021 21:18

@Practicebeingpatient

Funny how even after renouncing their maleness these transwomen still retain their male sense of entitlement to have sex with anyone they fancy.

This! A million times!

The TRA movement is in my opinion a subset of the MRA movement. It’s just make entitlement in a dress.

BloodinGutters · 26/10/2021 21:19

@logsonlogsoff

‘ So why is it transphobic of a lesbian to refuse to sleep with a transwoman with a penis who is of the opposite sex and therefore heteosexual regardless of the gender they identify? ’

It’s not. And outside of a core of trans activists on SM no-one in RL in the queer world thinks it is. Another lesbian here saying it’s bullshit, and the supposed cotton ceiling is a made up BS Term that activists on both sides like to scream about but which isn’t a thing in the real world for us queers.

But the very well funded leading lgbt+ organisations says the cotton ceiling is very real.

And this is the organisation writing public policy and is in our schools teaching our kids that lesbians must unlearn their societal prejudice.

Swipe left for the next trending thread