BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

And I think you could make a case for 3 of the 4 I excluded in the spirit of fairness.

Nearly a full house!

One bit is a poll of 80 women. One bit.
The testimony of the women quoted in the article is the important bit.

It is rather telling that critics are ignoring the rest of the article. It seems to indicate that they don’t think the stories of lesbians are even worth reading.

@CatherinaJTV

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success. It's sad to see the decline of a once proud institution into Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging.

You do know that rapey men on youtube make videos trying to bully lesbians into het sex don't you?

Even if you don;t believe a single account in the article can you not see that if there are videos online right now made by men encouraging men to sexually target lesbians and pressure lesbians to accepting those advances, then there is a pretty good chance that it happens in the real world?

Even if this kind of sexual coercion has happened to a minority of lesbians (even one is too many) the other part if the issue is the colonisation of lesbian spaces and culture by straight men. Lesbian culture is having to operate in secret again.

I’m horrified at the meaning of the phrase CC. I don’t even want to write it. It’s making it seem a “fun challenge” for straight men to “get into” the knickers of lesbians. It’s sickening.

please don't feed them. It's a good thread

@ChloeCrocodile

One bit is a poll of 80 women. One bit. The testimony of the women quoted in the article is the important bit.

It is rather telling that critics are ignoring the rest of the article. It seems to indicate that they don’t think the stories of lesbians are even worth reading.

Of course they don’t.

Lesbians only became lesbians because they were too fat and ugly girls to attract a man. They should be grateful they finally got a chance at the real thing.

*sarcasm disclaimer for any twittuppets reading.

@Clymene

Everyone's favourite sociology prof Finn Mackay has weighed in and accused the BBC of fear mongering and whipping up hatred of trans women. Lesbians commit sexual violence too!

97% of sexual violence is committed by men Finn.

I think it's worth looking at what Finn posted more closely. I sort of had goodwill towards them but this shows exactly how appalling disingenuous they can be. This is what Finn posted: ---- Outrageous that the BBC has produced a lengthy, anecdotal, opinion piece that headlines with, & promotes the idea that, trans women specifically are a rape threat & particularly to lesbians. It uses material from a booklet by an anti-trans inclusion group which promoted the same.

A minority, minoritised group is being singled out in a long article, with an alarmist, unsubstantiated, fear mongering headline that will only whip up a view in the mainstream that trans women specifically are a rape threat. Scandalous & irresponsible 'journalism'.

You can complain to the BBC easily & quickly via their website here - bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint/#/Complaint

Ppl say but we should be able to talk about sexual preferences & if you don't fancy someone you don't fancy them. Fair enough. Why a nasty feature length article on all the ways not to fancy someone. Then worse, blame & stigmatise that group you don't fancy & brand them a danger.

Unfortunately lesbians can & do experience sexual violence from lesbian partners; I wouldn't write a feature length article suggesting all lesbians are rapists & ask the group called 'All Lesbians Are Rapists" for a quote to back up my opinion piece.

I worry articles like this do a disservice to survivors in LGBTQ community. Are there predators & sex creeps in this community? Yes. Does the community do enough? No. But this is closing down speech as ppl worry their words will be weaponized in an agenda to remove trans rights.

---

Firstly, "Why a nasty feature length article on all the ways not to fancy someone. Then worse, blame & stigmatise that group you don't fancy & brand them a danger."

The group being stigmatised is rapists and male people who sexually coerce lesbians. If you don't think that's worthy of writing an article about then that says a lot about you.

The idea that it's supposed to 'suggest' all TW are rapists is clearly disingenuous. If someone reported that 2 men a week kill women would it be suggesting that all men kill women? Clearly not. Why be so quick to think that saying something true about how some members of a group use that group's politics to hurt people is a bad thing?

And 'unsubstantiated'? So Finn is actually saying these women are lying. Absolutely grim.

" Are there predators & sex creeps in this community? Yes. Does the community do enough? No"

Ah, cool, you've acknowledged it and moved on. That's clearly enough for you, Finn. But for some if you've had your life destroyed by sexual violence, perhaps, I don't know, being able to talk about it at the very least without being called a liar might be the very very first starting point in "doing enough"? No?

God I'm angry. So many women dismissed by a supposedly clever and 'kind' person.

[quote Gmom]@ArabellaScott I was talking about Stonewall supporting freedom of sexual orientation not talking about the freedom to have any given particular sexual encounter.[/quote]
I know, hence my apology for pedantry. I am now hyperaware of how easy it is for words to become twisted and safeguarding to be compromised.

@FrancescaContini

I’m horrified at the meaning of the phrase CC. I don’t even want to write it. It’s making it seem a “fun challenge” for straight men to “get into” the knickers of lesbians. It’s sickening.

Add to the often late transitioning tw and younger lesbians dynamic.

@CatherinaJTV

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success. It's sad to see the decline of a once proud institution into Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging.

What's your point?

It doesn't happen? It's exaggerated? Try this: terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

Years worth of receipts of homophobia and a belief that women have no right to choices that exclude male people even when talking about their own bodies.

It happens. Minimising it does not make it go away. Refusing to look at the issue until it's been written in triplicate by a fact checked group who have walked backwards three times around an oak tree during a full moon and - no, that's how many women have to be raped in prison before the MoJ get organised, isn't it?

Basically, do you support homophobia and the coercion of women against their right to have and express a sexual autonomy and freedom of sexual orientation or not?

"Are there predators & sex creeps in this community? Yes. Does the community do enough? No"

This tweet alone, Finn. This Tweet alone would have been okay.

Everything else is minimising, dismissing and undermining women and women's testimonies and experience. Shame on you.

CatherinaJTV

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success. It's sad to see the decline of a once proud institution into Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging.

So, how many women need to report rape or coercive pressure to sleep with people they don't want to for you to take it seriously, Catherina?

Personally, I would say one is too many.

@ArabellaScott

"Are there predators & sex creeps in this community? Yes. Does the community do enough? No"

This tweet alone, Finn. This Tweet alone would have been okay.

Everything else is minimising, dismissing and undermining women and women's testimonies and experience. Shame on you.

I wonder what the Twitter algorithm is for likes/RT/QTs for tweets that offer an unnuanced perspective or one that creates misinformation. I was taken aback at the disparity revealed in the leaked FB algorithm that explains quite a lot and must affect what is shown to people on Twitter.

Facebook's algorithm promoted 'toxic and hateful' content by giving five points to posts with emojis including 'angry and sad' and only one for those that received likes, leaked documents claimed today.

The firm's algorithm, which decides what people see on a newsfeed, was allegedly programmed to use the reaction emoji as a sign to push more provocative content.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10132759/Facebooks-algorithm-promoted-toxic-hateful-content.html

@CatherinaJTV but presumably you have no problem with J Harper’s work based on poll smaller than this that led to TW inclusion in women’s sport?
Or the poll - again based on smaller numbers and also self selecting respondents - where the trans suicide rates figure comes from?

Or is it that you just have a problem with a poll that reveals some people in a marginalised group (lesbians) are being raped and/ or coerced into sex by biological men?

Am posting Monsigneur's post here. Then I'm going to C+P it in the BBC feedback link.

If Finn is going to complain then let the BBC see what Finn is complaining about.

*Clymene
Everyone's favourite sociology prof Finn Mackay has weighed in and accused the BBC of fear mongering and whipping up hatred of trans women. Lesbians commit sexual violence too!

97% of sexual violence is committed by men Finn. I think it's worth looking at what Finn posted more closely. I sort of had goodwill towards them but this shows exactly how appalling disingenuous they can be. This is what Finn posted:

Outrageous that the BBC has produced a lengthy, anecdotal, opinion piece that headlines with, & promotes the idea that, trans women specifically are a rape threat & particularly to lesbians. It uses material from a booklet by an anti-trans inclusion group which promoted the same.

A minority, minoritised group is being singled out in a long article, with an alarmist, unsubstantiated, fear mongering headline that will only whip up a view in the mainstream that trans women specifically are a rape threat. Scandalous & irresponsible 'journalism'.

You can complain to the BBC easily & quickly via their website here - bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint/#/Complaint

Ppl say but we should be able to talk about sexual preferences & if you don't fancy someone you don't fancy them. Fair enough. Why a nasty feature length article on all the ways not to fancy someone. Then worse, blame & stigmatise that group you don't fancy & brand them a danger.

Unfortunately lesbians can & do experience sexual violence from lesbian partners; I wouldn't write a feature length article suggesting all lesbians are rapists & ask the group called 'All Lesbians Are Rapists" for a quote to back up my opinion piece.

I worry articles like this do a disservice to survivors in LGBTQ community. Are there predators & sex creeps in this community? Yes. Does the community do enough? No. But this is closing down speech as ppl worry their words will be weaponized in an agenda to remove trans rights.

---

Firstly, "Why a nasty feature length article on all the ways not to fancy someone. Then worse, blame & stigmatise that group you don't fancy & brand them a danger."

The group being stigmatised is rapists and male people who sexually coerce lesbians. If you don't think that's worthy of writing an article about then that says a lot about you.

The idea that it's supposed to 'suggest' all TW are rapists is clearly disingenuous. If someone reported that 2 men a week kill women would it be suggesting that all men kill women? Clearly not. Why be so quick to think that saying something true about how some members of a group use that group's politics to hurt people is a bad thing?

And 'unsubstantiated'? So Finn is actually saying these women are lying. Absolutely grim.

" Are there predators & sex creeps in this community? Yes. Does the community do enough? No"

Ah, cool, you've acknowledged it and moved on. That's clearly enough for you, Finn. But for some if you've had your life destroyed by sexual violence, perhaps, I don't know, being able to talk about it at the very least without being called a liar might be the very very first starting point in "doing enough"? No?

God I'm angry. So many women dismissed by a supposedly clever and 'kind' person.*

@ArabellaScott

CatherinaJTV

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success. It's sad to see the decline of a once proud institution into Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging.

So, how many women need to report rape or coercive pressure to sleep with people they don't want to for you to take it seriously, Catherina?

Personally, I would say one is too many.

Yes, good question. How many???

@EsmaCannonball

Even if this kind of sexual coercion has happened to a minority of lesbians (even one is too many) the other part if the issue is the colonisation of lesbian spaces and culture by straight men. Lesbian culture is having to operate in secret again.

And the leading lgbt+ organisation, that is in our schools, saying homosexuality is a social prejudice and the person who can not be named to teach the cotton ceiling seminars on over coming genital prejudices.

Even if this had only happened to one lesbian in the uk we can be 100% sure that it will escalate very fast when an organisation that teaches lesbians they must unlearn their same sex attraction and stop saying no to transwomen.

An organisation that is IN OUR FUCKING SCHOOLS is encouraging victims to lie down quietly for rapists.

"Acceptance without exception"

• Women who do not think TWAW need not apply.

reminder:
www.bbc.co.uk/contact/comments

"I believe her"

*Unless you do not think TWAW

"Some People Are Gay".

"Get Under Them".

My understanding from the Nolan Podcast is that - had this article been published by a news outlet a year or two ago - Ofcom may well have given the broadcaster a warning and reported this back to Stonewall for evidence to support their participation in one of their schemes.

Did anybody else draw that conclusion?

@tigerinyourtank

My understanding from the Nolan Podcast is that - had this article been published by a news outlet a year or two ago - Ofcom may well have given the broadcaster a warning and reported this back to Stonewall for evidence to support their participation in one of their schemes.

Did anybody else draw that conclusion?

Yes

Absolutely. I posted very much earlier in the thread about how much work seemed to have gone into the piece for it to have been an ad hoc response to a shifting cultural direction.