BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

Why did no-one tell me I can demand people have sex with me or else they are racists? I want me one of those ones off of Strictly. I, too, shall be writing to the BBC. Thanks, Ash. Glad you're back on YouTube.

Are people just not reading the article?

For all the different variations on this question, there's a discussion on the Margaret Atwood thread about whether or not people who are in particular communities read the primary sources.

I vote that for all sorts of reasons they don't because to do so goes outside the rules of closed communities that can not tolerate dissent in any form. That's why thought terminating clichés are so valuable, they not only deter conversation they are used to reprogramme individuals' own thinking patterns and deter them from further exploration. It teaches people to accept the pre-digested interpretation of others rather than accept their own interpretation of a source text.

I'm pretty sure Idris Elba would refuse to have sex with me (a fat ageing heterosexual white woman)

Clearly racist.

@EsmaCannonball

Why did no-one tell me I can demand people have sex with me or else they are racists? I want me one of those ones off of Strictly. I, too, shall be writing to the BBC. Thanks, Ash. Glad you're back on YouTube.

Can I demand that straight women sleep with me for fear of being labelled lesbophobic? My sex life would be much more social media worthy - I demand a recount.. Thanks, Ash.

The question that needs to be asked of OJ, Ash, David Paisley and everyone else is:

Is it transphobic bigotry for a lesbian to not want to have sex with a transwoman?

If the answer is yes: Then you wouldn't have a problem with the situations being described by lesbians in the article, as they are simply having their bigotry called out, so no one is 'lying', this stuff does happen, but there is no problem with that.

If the answer is no: Then why are Stonewall saying that it's 'prejudiced' to not want to have sex with a transwoman?

The more transactivists complain, the better. Because at some point a journalist, the BBC, a podcaster, is going to demand an actual answer to counter what the TRAs are insisting.

So what IS a lesbian then?

Can a lesbian have a penis? And if so who is their target dating pool???

Linked to the Chappelle threads, it's interesting that the first cry of the transactivists is often, 'Racism!' because they don't have any arguments of merit about sex and gender alone.

I would also add that it is not necessarily bigoted to exclude a group from your dating pool, but neither is it necessarily enlightened to include a group in your dating pool. I mean, most men pretty much want to have sex with women but that doesn't mean they are filled with respect for the equal humanity of women. Indeed it can mean the exact opposite. There are people (I'm saying people but I mainly mean men) who are sexually attracted to people of particular races precisely because they have a fetish fuelled by bigotry for people of those races. (Those men who equate Asian women with submissiveness or traditional femininity, for example.) Sexual desire and lack of bigotry are not the same thing.

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

The question that needs to be asked of OJ, Ash, David Paisley and everyone else is:

Is it transphobic bigotry for a lesbian to not want to have sex with a transwoman?

If the answer is yes: Then you wouldn't have a problem with the situations being described by lesbians in the article, as they are simply having their bigotry called out, so no one is 'lying', this stuff does happen, but there is no problem with that.

If the answer is no: Then why are Stonewall saying that it's 'prejudiced' to not want to have sex with a transwoman?

Exactly. All this sunlight starts begging questions.

Endless questions.

And if there are no answers, that's a question in itself.

Bring it on.

I honestly don't understand why anyone is calling this article transphobic? And no one seems to be explaining themselves, presumably because it's "completely obvious" why. Is it just because "not all transpeople", or is it because they don't believe it's ANY transpeople, or is it because they believe that it IS transphobic to suggest that lesbians are allowed to decide who they have sex with?

Using the search term "cotton ceiling" brings the article up on the BBC website. Bit apart from that you can't see it/find it at all.....

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success. It's sad to see the decline of a once proud institution into Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging.

ViceLikeBlip Well, there are those who think that it's manhating to talk about men's violence against women...not all men!

@CatherinaJTV

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success. It's sad to see the decline of a once proud institution into Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging.

I'm surprised that you haven't benefited from the ample discussion that's already taken place on this thread and that you must have noticed before posting another 'Cancel the cheque'.

@CatherinaJTV

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success. It's sad to see the decline of a once proud institution into Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging.

Good on you for giving it a go, shame that your comment doesn't address the comments made on this thread about the use of the survey in the article and the quality of the research in the article.

@CatherinaJTV

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success. It's sad to see the decline of a once proud institution into Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging.

One bit is a poll of 80 women. One bit. The testimony of the women quoted in the article is the important bit.

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women

How many women need to be harmed before you consider it to be significant and worth talking about. This is the lived experience of lesbians, I believe them, I guess you don't

@CatherinaJTV

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success. It's sad to see the decline of a once proud institution into Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging.

Do you believe the women or not? If just one of those accounts was true do you disagree that that would be worrying?

I'm sure you can manage a yes or no answer to those questions?

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women.

@CatherinaJTV - what do you mean "based on"? It's a wide-ranging article that quotes that survey as one piece of the picture and is immediately followed with an acknowledgement by the person who conducted the survey that it's not representative, although it at least tells us there are 45 lesbians with bad experiences to recount - would you dismiss those?

Anyway, when you say poorly researched, what other sources should the reporter looked at?

@CatherinaJTV

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success. It's sad to see the decline of a once proud institution into Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging.

Well, that piece of predictable idiocy should wake the thread up... How many lesbians have to be raped for you to take the issue seriously?

I sadly know some lesbians for whom this has been their reality. They feel threatened and further marginalised within their own community. Scared to speak about their feelings, having already faced quite a bit of prejudice in coming out in the first place.

The quote from Stonewall had me open-mouthed. It's the equivalent of accusing me (a heterosexual woman) of being shaped by societal norms in my attraction to men. I don't fancy women, not because of society but because I'm heterosexual. I'm not sexist for not including women in my sex life. The same is true of homosexuality and yet...

@ViceLikeBlip

I honestly don't understand why anyone is calling this article transphobic? And no one seems to be explaining themselves, presumably because it's "completely obvious" why. Is it just because "not all transpeople", or is it because they don't believe it's ANY transpeople, or is it because they believe that it IS transphobic to suggest that lesbians are allowed to decide who they have sex with?

Who knows? I guess the argument is something like "Maybe a few trans women do this, but hardly any, and the BBC article is massively exaggerating the scale of the problem by only talking to lesbians to whom this has happened, as opposed to the majority of lesbians to whom it hasn't happened, and they are doing so in order to whip up hatred of trans people."

Is it worth a polite note to bbc helpdesk about the fact that this article is filed under "england" but doesn't show up on the "england" page any more? Must be a technical error, surely...

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success.

No, the article is based on interviews. As journalism tends to be. And as a lot of qualitative academic research in the social sciences has been for decades.

The fact they might have taken part in a self-selecting survey is irrelevant to what they have to say in interviews.

If you're struggling to understand the concepts of qualitative and quantitative research, I can suggest some beginners' reading.

@CatherinaJTV

the article is shockingly poorly researched, based on a biased online poll of 80 women. Sheesh, give me a break. Complaint to BBC regarding the violation of their own quality standards going out, not with much hope of any success. It's sad to see the decline of a once proud institution into Jeremy Kyle style mud slinging.

This article www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-59009470 describes the experiences of 26 female judges in Afghanistan after the Taliban takeover. It is based on interviews with the women, and anecdotes and information from WhatsApp groups.

Would you discount their experiences as well? Because if you think the cotton ceiling article is poorly-researched because it only cites evidence from 80 lesbians in the UK, then I assume you will also be complaining to the BBC about the Afghan article, which not only has a much smaller sample, but disguises their faces and names as well.