BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

[quote Clymene]@BatmansBat
It is an attempt to position transwomen as a subset of women (rather than a subset of men), like black women, fat women, disabled women, short women. It's why stonewall et al insist on a space between trans and women. [/quote]
Totally. As if they’re just another “type” of woman.

Ally Fogg reminds me of the same type of blokes who used to target Mumsnet for fathers' rights.

I sent positive feedback to the BBC, praising their new honesty and clarity.

Is the Stonewall-ditching really imminent, do you think? And anyone else going at the idea that Nolan and this being published are coincidental?

@Vanishun

I'm absolutely delighted that the trans community is so outraged - this means that they will surely join us in protesting the incredibly rare group of trans people who say and do these things?

Exactly. Honestly. The logic fails are so numerous.

"Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

Fucking hell! That is just appalling

I am sure I’ll get flamed for this but here goes.

Of course no one should feel pressured into having sex with anyone they don’t want to, no matter what the reason, and any comments to the contrary are intolerable.

HOWEVER - the article uses statistics based on a survey of 80 people done via this woman’s own social media site. Two major statistical flaws here - too small a pool, and strong selection bias.

Regardless of what side of the fence you are on, it is essential we don’t let a good headline get in the way of accuracy and rigour. This is not to deny the anecdotal evidence provided, and it is very distressing to hear of what these women have experienced.

This is conversion therapy by any other name isn’t it? “if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like men, or women, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.” So sexuality is nurture not nature and we can all be shaped out of it.

Yes - interestingly they can't quite bring themselves to say men or women in the quote, but that is exactly what they are saying.

"societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions". Nancy Kelley/Stonewall.

"rape victims must reframe your trauma". Mridul Wadhwa/Edinburgh Rape Crisis.

"strategizing ways to overcome the Cotton Ceiling". M- P---, unnamed Stonewall employee/Toronto Planned Parenthood workshop.

We are paying these people, through government grants, to teach rapists how to perfect their game and justify their crimes.

@BigHeartyTruffle

I am sure I’ll get flamed for this but here goes.

Of course no one should feel pressured into having sex with anyone they don’t want to, no matter what the reason, and any comments to the contrary are intolerable.

HOWEVER - the article uses statistics based on a survey of 80 people done via this woman’s own social media site. Two major statistical flaws here - too small a pool, and strong selection bias.

Regardless of what side of the fence you are on, it is essential we don’t let a good headline get in the way of accuracy and rigour. This is not to deny the anecdotal evidence provided, and it is very distressing to hear of what these women have experienced.

No, 80 isn’t a great big sample I agree. BUT…

They do acknowledge that in the article and to be honest it’s about 2.5 times bigger than the sample of 27 that was used to form the basis of the trans suicide stats that everyone bandies around as gospel.

Feels like BBC staff have finally been freed from the shackles of Stonewall. Expect more light to be let in from now on.

Blimey, that's a turn up for the books! The New Statesman has recently published two articles that are broadly supportive of gender-critical feminists - one about Kathleen Stock.

Usually I’d agree Truffle but the ever quoted suicide statistics used to emotionally blackmail orgs into giving young trans ppl whatever they want otherwise they’ll probably kill themselves is based on 27 ppl

The IOC changed their transgender policy based on research of 8 athletes

TRA can’t have it both ways….either statistics must invoke a large rigorously sampled data set or the qualitative data matters more than the quantitative

@BigHeartyTruffle

I am sure I’ll get flamed for this but here goes.

Of course no one should feel pressured into having sex with anyone they don’t want to, no matter what the reason, and any comments to the contrary are intolerable.

HOWEVER - the article uses statistics based on a survey of 80 people done via this woman’s own social media site. Two major statistical flaws here - too small a pool, and strong selection bias.

Regardless of what side of the fence you are on, it is essential we don’t let a good headline get in the way of accuracy and rigour. This is not to deny the anecdotal evidence provided, and it is very distressing to hear of what these women have experienced.

I don't understand your objection. The claim isn't that this happens frequently or that it happens to 1 in four lesbians or anything like that.

The claim is that it happens. Which is denied. It never happens is the counter claim.

To prove that it happens, you need a sample size of ONE.

This is not to deny the anecdotal evidence provided, and it is very distressing to hear of what these women have experienced.

I don't know, but suspect this has become a much bigger issue because of greater use of dating apps, which need to sort by preference and really do require honesty from strangers. Happy to be corrected, but I'm under the impression that the popular ones only allow participants to state a gender preference, not a sexual preference.

FFS, the focus on the 80 is just a repeat of what women were up against with Weinstein.

These are our stories, it's a reportage with testimonies. BELIEVE THEM

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Usually I’d agree Truffle but the ever quoted suicide statistics used to emotionally blackmail orgs into giving young trans ppl whatever they want otherwise they’ll probably kill themselves is based on 27 ppl

The IOC changed their transgender policy based on research of 8 athletes

TRA can’t have it both ways….either statistics must invoke a large rigorously sampled data set or the qualitative data matters more than the quantitative

Yup. The Harper study had 8 self selecting participants. EIGHT.

The other point is that whether or not lesbians are hassled, Stonewall have clearly said that it is transphobic to have a sexual preference.

So surprised and amazed that the BBC have published this. Thank God - this sunlight is needed.

At least with Weinstein nobody was saying "I don't believe he raped anyone, but it would be rude for any woman to refuse him".

@BigHeartyTruffle

I am sure I’ll get flamed for this but here goes.

Of course no one should feel pressured into having sex with anyone they don’t want to, no matter what the reason, and any comments to the contrary are intolerable.

HOWEVER - the article uses statistics based on a survey of 80 people done via this woman’s own social media site. Two major statistical flaws here - too small a pool, and strong selection bias.

Regardless of what side of the fence you are on, it is essential we don’t let a good headline get in the way of accuracy and rigour. This is not to deny the anecdotal evidence provided, and it is very distressing to hear of what these women have experienced.

Why is that your expectation when you must have noticed when you read the thread that the point about non-probabilistic sampling/the sample size etc. has been made by several posters already and none has been flamed or even lukewarmly criticised?

The claim is that it happens. Which is denied. It never happens is the counter claim.

And other claim is that many "trans allies" do not care to address the fact that this happens, as is now being demonstrated. There is not the slightest attempt to counter this.

Stonewall: “Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.“

once again the comparison to racism ...

There is very very little genetic, biological chromosonal difference between black women, yellow women, brown women, white women. "Race" is far more a cultural idea, than a biological thing.

But there is a basic and immutable difference between any man and any woman.

I see LOJ is going bonkers on Twitter again. Should someone take one for the team and ask him about how many transmen he's been in relationships with. Because his preference for dick is clearly transphobic.

And every heterosexual couple in this world is clearly transphobic.

Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attraction

Oh don't be so damn silly.

1. Sexual activity with a person is not an equal opportunity, socially just thing, this is insane. Who you choose to let access your body involves your enjoyment, your choice, your unique perceptions of attraction. Male people you do not want to let access your body are just going to have to get over this

2. This has led to the insanity of Rachel Mckinnon saying on radio 4 how lesbians needs to 'learn to cope' with sex with males, and moaning in articles about lesbians 'selfishly prioritising their own orgasms' when there are male people needing sexual servicing. When you've hit this depth of misogyny where you believe a female sexual partner shouldn't expect to enjoy and is merely there to service you, then frankly you're a person no one should ever be dating until you've had some major therapy.

3. I'm homosexual. Deal with. I have sex exclusively with adult human females, this will never include a male. Get your pitchforks, come get me. If being homosexual is transphobic, then fine, call me whatever names you feel you must. Just don't expect me to care.

@Cherryana

I really can’t believe we have got to a point in society where women’s consent is so flagrantly denigrated in public.

It make me so sad that there are women who feel they have to justify their sexuality or feel like they can’t say no due to external pressure.

I am glad the light is starting to shine on the militant, violent, hostile and oppressive behaviour that is being levelled at women.

This 100%.

Stonewall have clearly said that it is transphobic to have a sexual preference

So every homosexual man or woman is transphobic; and every heterosexual woman or man is transphobic.

Still, I expect it'll solve the overpopulation problem.

And global warming.