BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

Why is that your expectation when you must have noticed when you read the thread that the point about non-probabilistic sampling/the sample size etc. has been made by several posters already

not to mention that the point is made in the article itself. I don't think anyone is trying to argue that the survey is a representative sample of the lesbian population. That does not make the survey valueless.

@BigHeartyTruffle

I am sure I’ll get flamed for this but here goes.

Of course no one should feel pressured into having sex with anyone they don’t want to, no matter what the reason, and any comments to the contrary are intolerable.

HOWEVER - the article uses statistics based on a survey of 80 people done via this woman’s own social media site. Two major statistical flaws here - too small a pool, and strong selection bias.

Regardless of what side of the fence you are on, it is essential we don’t let a good headline get in the way of accuracy and rigour. This is not to deny the anecdotal evidence provided, and it is very distressing to hear of what these women have experienced.

Well, apart from the fact that much smaller statistical pools have been used to actually shape policy on sports and to push a very specific narrative wrt suicide, most of the article isn't even revolving around that surgery anyway. It's about the experiences of some women (and the BBC and other outlets will often do articles in the exact same format about other issues) and also features a quote from Stonewall essentially saying that it's 'prejudiced' for lesbians to exclude transwomen from their dating pool and a screenshot from Rachel McKinnon also saying a similar thing. So we can see it's happening for ourselves anyway.

May I point out that the headline did not rely on the study?

The headline is: We're being pressured into sex by some trans women'

Clearly, they are, and the survey consists of...some women reporting such experiences. Do we not believe women now?

"it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions."-Stonewall

I've been wondering how much time people are supposed to spend analysing why they're not attracted to someone. I mean, I use 3 Tube lines to get to work and that's a lot of people I'm seeing and just not fancying twice a day.

I can only think of the time I had a really shit, boring summer job as a student and puzzled a lot over why I only fancied one of the identical twins I worked with.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Usually I’d agree Truffle but the ever quoted suicide statistics used to emotionally blackmail orgs into giving young trans ppl whatever they want otherwise they’ll probably kill themselves is based on 27 ppl

The IOC changed their transgender policy based on research of 8 athletes

TRA can’t have it both ways….either statistics must invoke a large rigorously sampled data set or the qualitative data matters more than the quantitative

Indeed. It's like having an article with examples of women being raped and doing a 'not all men, you shouldn't have published this' response.

It's happening and it looks very much like the response from the trans lobby is "How dare you talk about this!"

as @HoardingSamphireSaurus said -Could I just reiterate, in bold?

Britains foremost LGBT organisation is calling sexual orientation a prejudice.

Think about it.

Think about what it's like for every lesbian at 850 organisations sex-matters.org/stonewall-champions-list/ where many lesbian staff are in the closet. HSBC, Marks & Spencer, the NHS, Councils, Universities...

@BigHeartyTruffle

I am sure I’ll get flamed for this but here goes.

Of course no one should feel pressured into having sex with anyone they don’t want to, no matter what the reason, and any comments to the contrary are intolerable.

HOWEVER - the article uses statistics based on a survey of 80 people done via this woman’s own social media site. Two major statistical flaws here - too small a pool, and strong selection bias.

Regardless of what side of the fence you are on, it is essential we don’t let a good headline get in the way of accuracy and rigour. This is not to deny the anecdotal evidence provided, and it is very distressing to hear of what these women have experienced.

It doesn't matter how big the sample size is. If one woman gets raped, it's one woman too many. And it doesn't matter whether it was a trans"woman" or a male-identifying man. If you have a penis and you stick it where it's not wanted, it's rape.

It's fine for women to talk about this, and it's fine, indeed required, for the BBC and other media outlets to report it.

I didn't realise this was happening (although I suppose I should have done) and it's good that it has been published (though I see the BBC has hidden it away somewhat).

I barely know where to begin with that article, other than a huge cheer to see sunlight pouring in on this dark corner.

I mean, it's all pretty depressing to think that gay women are being exposed to coercion and corrective rape (and, as a PP said, all wrapped up in a rainbow flag). That they're being harassed and abused for reserving the right to say who they will and won't have sex with. That this is just yet a-fucking-nother example of men demanding sex from women and turning nasty when denied what they perceive as their 'right', but where they're now using the guise of womanhood to launch their attacks. That the 'cotton ceiling' concept is being used to undermine consent, like the ghastly PUAs but even more devious as they're hiding under the Cloak of Woke.

But the pissy cherry on the shitty cake is Stonewall - they of the campaign for gay rights because "gay people were born this way" - who now think that sexual preference is a societal construct, and espouse the view that not having sex with a trans person is as a result of prejudice.

WTAF?

HOWEVER - the article uses statistics based on a survey of 80 people done via this woman’s own social media site. Two major statistical flaws here - too small a pool, and strong selection bias.

The article also quotes Stonewall and prominent trans activists who agree that sexual orientation is prejudice.

the article uses statistics based on a survey of 80 people done via this woman’s own social media site.

I just wanted to come back to this. The article is using those statistics correctly. It is absolutely valid to quote a survey, acknowledge (as is done here) that it is not representative and then say that such and such a percentage of that particular survey's respondents said XYZ.

Especially when you are not reporting on how rare or common a certain something is but when you are reporting that a certain something exists.

If the statistics we criticise so frequently here were used in this way (to show that something happens at all within the trans community), that would be a valid use of those statistics. But that's not what happens in those cases. Because they are used to support claims that it happens to a precise percentage of the whole trans community.

@Artichokeleaves

Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attraction

Oh don't be so damn silly.

1. Sexual activity with a person is not an equal opportunity, socially just thing, this is insane. Who you choose to let access your body involves your enjoyment, your choice, your unique perceptions of attraction. Male people you do not want to let access your body are just going to have to get over this

2. This has led to the insanity of Rachel Mckinnon saying on radio 4 how lesbians needs to 'learn to cope' with sex with males, and moaning in articles about lesbians 'selfishly prioritising their own orgasms' when there are male people needing sexual servicing. When you've hit this depth of misogyny where you believe a female sexual partner shouldn't expect to enjoy and is merely there to service you, then frankly you're a person no one should ever be dating until you've had some major therapy.

3. I'm homosexual. Deal with. I have sex exclusively with adult human females, this will never include a male. Get your pitchforks, come get me. If being homosexual is transphobic, then fine, call me whatever names you feel you must. Just don't expect me to care.

Absolutely this. All of it, and lots more.

But it absolutely enrages me that the only place it's safe to say this, to express my "transphobic genital preference" is here in the Mumsnet naughty corner.

Alanis Morrisette could have gotten another verse out of this..

Sexual activity with a person is not an equal opportunity, socially just thing, this is insane.

Nothing an individual does should be an equal opportunity, socially just thing, or at least whether they want it to be is up to them.

Neither an individual nor the state can police other people's individual freedom of choice.

Which is why neither the GRA2004 nor EA2010 apply to individuals at all.

(The conflicts arise when organisations try to compel individuals to behave in a certain way to uphold their own GRA/EA responsibilities).

I can't think of a single lesbian group where I could share this article without being labelled a bigot or a transphobe which says it all really.

Wow. From the article: Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. Yeah, no kidding: you get rape and death threats if you suggest or propose researching this.

However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves. Usually "not trans" by any reasonable definition. Trans people know they have not changed/cannot change sex.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up. "I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said. Classic DARVO; her ex girlfriend is an anti-woman activist.

We are paying these people, through government grants, to teach rapists how to perfect their game and justify their crimes.

I know

It's happening and it looks very much like the response from the trans lobby is "How dare you talk about this

On Twitter something along the lines of
Transwoman "I fancy you".

Lesbian woman "I don't fancy you"
Transwoman "OK".

Lesbian woman "Why are you HASSLING me".

Totally minimising the issue, indeed, pretending it isn't even happening. Arseholes.

As for Rachel Mckinna, massive cheat in cycling? (S)he can eff right off. "She" doesn't get to have an opinion until s/he stops competing and taking medals etc away from biological women.

"it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions."-Stonewall

Apart from the glaringly obvious thing wrong with this statement (namely that it dismisses same-sex attraction, the very thing the charity was created to defend, as a mere personal preference), Stonewall seem not to have noticed that men in particular often have very niche and specific things they find attractive. I'm reliably informed that if you go on a gay men's dating app, you'll find men being very particular about only being attracted to hairy men, or fat men, or Asian men. Some are even very open about not being attracted to particular ethnicities. Are they going to start lecturing these men about being more open-minded about who they're attracted to? Or is that particular lecture reserved for lesbians?

Stonewall - they of the campaign for gay rights because "gay people were born this way" - who now think that sexual preference is a societal construct,

If I can be required to 'learn to unlearn' my homosexual orientation as just a bad habit I must force myself to set aside regardless of my feelings....

then the question arises why trans people are not being similarly required to unlearn their gender identity challenges.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander: this comes up over and over again in this political ideology.

• I get to choose my identity but I will tell you yours
• do not label me but you may not resist or refuse the label I give to you whether or not you like it
• I am too afraid to use x facility in case of assault, but you must get over your silly, unjustified fears of assault.
• i need privacy and dignity, but you must unlearn your silly prudishness and learn to do without both
• I must never hear a suggestion of questioning of my gender orientation, but your sexual orientation should be something you make yourself get over and stop thinking that sex is for you to enjoy when it's actually a social duty to provide for others.

No.

Just no. Done now.

I'm so pleased to see Angela C Wild quoted, as well as the LGB Alliance. The Lesbians and Ground Zero report sealed the deal for me in terms of getting the full picture. It has been years in the making, this article and they truly deserve this exposure.

The quote from Nancy Kelly:

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions."

Says it all. I'll be sending a comment to the BBC to congratulate them on this.

But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

   Lets leave dating aside.   If what you're talking about is SEXUAL INTERCOURSE, yes I do write off  legions of social groups as potential sexual partners.  It's a lust-failure on my part, especially the vagina part. 

Obviously, very unfairly, I was born, raised, educated or medicated in a way that has totally put me off trying lesbian sex. I hereby apologise to all lesbians for not being turned on by any of you.

   Also I apologise to the many men/slobs/creeps who fancied me but got knocked back  because their lust  just was not reciprocated.  I should have been more tolerant/sympathetic/imaginative, or at least drunk enough not to refuse.

 Which brings me to animals.   OK I admit I used to be a leetle moist at the thought of  Vincent  in Beauty and the Beast

but obviously he never fancied me as his sex kitten

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

But......both straight and gay people have always 'written off entire groups of people' - that's what makes us straight or gay!! Isn't this what Stonewall was meant to stand for? That same-sex attraction is as innate and natural as opposite-sex attraction?

They would never expect a gay man to have sex with a woman and call them discriminatory if they didn't.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

My preferred version:

If you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, that's up to you.

Your body is not subject to equality legislation. You are not providing a service, you are seeking a mutually satisfying relationship.

It doesn't matter why you don't want to date someone. Maybe it's their sex. Maybe it's because they wear uggs. Your No, means NO.

Love this.

@BigHeartyTruffle

the article uses statistics based on a survey of 80 people done via this woman’s own social media site. Two major statistical flaws here - too small a pool, and strong selection bias.

The survey had 56% of its respondents reporting some form of coercion. Because of the limitations you highlight, it would be poor statistics to conclude that 56% of lesbians in general have experienced this coercion. But I don't see the article doing that.

Nevertheless, it's perfectly valid to point out that it's 45 people saying that they have been coerced / pressured etc.

The person who conducted the survey notes these very points in the article:

While acknowledging the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian community, she believes it was important to capture their "points of view and stories".

45 concerning stories are enough to suggest that we should be investigating further and doing the more rigorous kind of survey that you are suggesting: I hope both "sides" would welcome more robust data to inform the debate.

I don't really understand why people wouldn't believe lesbians are being pressurised into having sex with men.

As a society we now frown on the idea that women should be forced into sex (although this is comparatively recent), but Stonewall's argument gives cover to men who can argue that the issue isn't lack of attraction, it's transphobia

If youjust meet people in clubs or are use dating apps, they don't have to know anything about you. If they later find out that you usually present as male, you can just claim to be gender fluid or not yet fully out.

Thanks for sharing.

You can have any reason you want to not find someone sexually attractive. From something as trivial as liking marmite or not to the shape of someone’s knee, if there’s no attraction for you then no. The same in a loving relationship of someone changes and you find them not what you want then you don’t have to force yourself into sex. Obviously some areshole people lose interest in partners post surgery/childbirth/aging etc but most of us are with decent humans who only deepen their affection for each other. We don’t have to sleep with everyone who shows interest!