Please don't use the greeting "Hi ladies"

[MareofBeasttown]

I am a member of a women's social group which is friendly and inclusive. Non-binary people are also allowed to join and this is mentioned on the website. A member is now suggesting that the word 'women' in the group's name should be taken out and it be changed to "women and enby". She is also arguing that greetings like "Hi Ladies" should not be used. Instead, she suggests" Hi Ladies and Enbies". What do people think?

For the love of the wee man...if its a woman’s group, how can you want to join of your dont consider yourself a woman?

Sounds fair enough to me. Sounds like they're just changing the name and the greeting to include everyone that's actually attending. I'm pretty sensitive to the word "woman" dissappearing from stuff but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

I suppose hello everyone wouldn’t cause enough drama…

If you change the group name to 'women and enbys', you're liable to get males who ID as nonbinary. Is that what the majority want?

As to the greeting.... quite a lot of women aren't particularly keen on 'ladies' anyway. 'Hello everyone' will do.

Change it once and next week someone will pipe up that they are neither of the above and can you change it again...

Sounds like they should leave the group and set up a Non Men group and leave the ladies to have their own group

😂
Sorry but when will people stop bending over backwards to do what teenagers want?
No one use to listen to teenagers.
No wonder they're all buying into this rubbish, because people actually do what they say!

What about "hello ladies and ladies who identify as other genders" because that's more inclusive. It's not all about the NBs.

I am sure I have used "Hi Ladies" on the Facebook page. I don't really think that much about it. I am fairly sure men's groups don't have this problem, or do they?

I'd ask for a neutral greeting.

The problem with "ladies and enbies" or "women and cervix havers" or whatever is it posits "woman" as an identity, not a physical reality with infinite personality options.

The problem with using the word woman as an identity is that it leaves the group wide open to people with the identity "woman" who are actually of the male sex. It is also quite offensive to a large number of women who think, as I do, that "woman" is merely the physical reality of our being, but that a woman can have any personality, expression or presentation.

When I say "woman" it automatically includes female enbies and transmen. Of course they follow a belief system that doesn't recognise that. So I can't see a compromise beyond a neutral greeting.

I'd be rolling my eyes and carrying on per usual. This person can go find a new group.

I never understand why women's groups are open to people who consider themselves NB. I mean the fact that they are open to TW is also a problem for me and puts me off, because if I want to be with only women, I don't want to be with a male. But at least TW identify as women so I can see why they would want to be there. Why the hell does someone who doesn't think they're a woman want to be there and why should they have special recognition? FFS. Saying hi ladies in a woman's group seems ... kinda the point?

I work for a charity educating groups of adults and we are taught not to use the word ladies at all because of its classist history. I thought that was odd at the time but I am grateful years later because I use women instead and am determined to keep doing so.

@MareofBeasttown

I am a member of a women's social group which is friendly and inclusive. Non-binary people are also allowed to join and this is mentioned on the website. A member is now suggesting that the word 'women' in the group's name should be taken out and it be changed to "women and enby". She is also arguing that greetings like "Hi Ladies" should not be used. Instead, she suggests" Hi Ladies and Enbies". What do people think?

I think she needs to make sure she takes her medication.

“Hello everyone.”

The word woman/women in the title can stay, if people were prepared to join when it was called Vipers Women’s Group then they knew what they were getting. Changing it to accommodate someone’s current self identification could easily put off potential new members who want to join a women’s group because they simply want to talk to other women , not to feel they have to tread around someone’s imaginary gender. Also if you change it then every time you get a newly gendered member you will be pressured to add on more names.

I'd go for "hello everyone," as that should cover all bases. I hate "hello ladies" even when it is all women. Though I probably hate "hello gents" more, because then I have the need to point out we're not all men in the department.

@FlaviaAlbiaWantsLangClegBack

I suppose hello everyone wouldn’t cause enough drama…

There will still be someone that finds that offensive. There always is.

TBH though I just self-exclude from all these "women's" groups that are all about bending over backwards to allow anyone in. I don't hate trans people, but I don't want to spend time with the kind of people who want to make something for women all about themselves and demand special treatment. It's just exhausting and annoying. If you can't go to a woman's group and talk about being a woman and things that being a woman involves, for fear of offending someone, then why bother.

Why have they joined a women's group if they don't consider themself to be a women

On the basis of long experience with the internet, being a former TRA, and all the rest of it, I say, say no now. It is always a slippery slope.

Regarding the greetings, tell the member requesting the change that it is up to individual members how they start posts, and that if she or others don't feel personally addressed by any post, they can simply not answer it.

@PronounssheRa

Why have they joined a women's group if they don't consider themself to be a women

Exactly. Make it make sense!

OP says "I am a member of a women's social group which is friendly and inclusive. Non-binary people are also allowed to join and this is mentioned on the website." and that really says NOTHING!

Banter in the pub or serious discussion about matters only relevant to women (AHFs)?

Inclusive of what? Anyone female? Anyone female and not actively identifying as a man? Anyone identifying as a woman? Anyone identify as a woman or an ally of women?

Non-binary... what do you mean by that? Women who call themselves women but aren't feminine? Anyone who claims to be non-binary?

And forgive me if I'm missing something, but I'm not sure why there isa need for anything other than social groups for women, social groups for men, and social groups for everyone. What is the point of a women and non-binary, unless you mean and "all women" women and non-binary?

[Obviously if trans people want to set up groups for male bodied trans people, or male bodied trans people and women, or all trans people, or all non-binary people then I can;t see a problem

Why have they joined a women's group if they don't consider themself to be a women

Is perfect

@PaleGreenGhost

I'd ask for a neutral greeting.

The problem with "ladies and enbies" or "women and cervix havers" or whatever is it posits "woman" as an identity, not a physical reality with infinite personality options.

The problem with using the word woman as an identity is that it leaves the group wide open to people with the identity "woman" who are actually of the male sex. It is also quite offensive to a large number of women who think, as I do, that "woman" is merely the physical reality of our being, but that a woman can have any personality, expression or presentation.

When I say "woman" it automatically includes female enbies and transmen. Of course they follow a belief system that doesn't recognise that. So I can't see a compromise beyond a neutral greeting.

Surely the point of a women’s group being named as such is that by implication it includes a range of adult human females who probably have different ages, ideas, tastes, experiences, family lives, education, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc etc, but have a commonality in that they have female bodies with the physical, social and emotional baggage that a female body brings.

To be honest, I am educating myself about all these issues. There is quite a lot I do not know. I didn't realise that ladies was classist, for instance. "Hi Everyone" would probably be better; I just dip in and out of FB Groups and often don't think hard about these things.

There are also some trans women in the group and they don't demand special treatment at all. I tend to talk about neutral topics like Netflix, local history, local events and so on.. Once though the topic of JK Rowling came up and I just kept mum because I felt too unsure of myself!

Yeah there's a point to act like a grown up and accept that you cannot control everyone and not everything is all about you.

They joined a women's group. If they don't feel that fits their identity then they're free to look for groups that fit them better. And they're free to skip past posts they don't want to reply to or feel personally addressed by. I agree with pp: say no now. Polite and firm boundaries.