Please don't use the greeting "Hi ladies"

[MareofBeasttown]

I am a member of a women's social group which is friendly and inclusive. Non-binary people are also allowed to join and this is mentioned on the website. A member is now suggesting that the word 'women' in the group's name should be taken out and it be changed to "women and enby". She is also arguing that greetings like "Hi Ladies" should not be used. Instead, she suggests" Hi Ladies and Enbies". What do people think?

Does this include non binary people who are actually men? can they join? or only non binary people who are actually women? If a non binary person who is actually male joins then it's not a woman's group any more is it? But the website says it's opens to NB's so...........Is there actually anyone who says they are NB in the group?

I'm a member of a face book group that pridez itself in being "inclusive " too. A woman who wants too sure what way round that meant was in fact told plainly that wouldn't change when she got worried that men were in the group and she didn't know about it. Insulting and medically incorrect information was also left to stand to appease those celebrating the inclusiveness. Advice given about a child that if taken would have been disastrous

Women are supposed to feel included by the phrase "hi guys" so I fail to see why NBs or whoever the fuck, cannot feel included by "hi ladies".

Exactly. If we all have to revise our words, so can they.

Ok you lot
Alright you people
Hola!
My people!

Took me a second to realise what an ‘Enby’ was. I presume you mean “N-B”.

I wondered whether you meant female only non-binaries, or do you mean males who identify as non-binary also.

What a minefield!

I’d just go with “hi everyone” if it’s that much of a big deal. But only because I couldn’t bring myself to use “enbies”.

Can’t they just say ‘hi.’ Or ‘hi everybody.’ Hi ladies and enbies just sounds daft. What’s the next step - ‘hi ladies, enbies and Geminis?’ A simple greeting doesn’t need to include everyone’s every identity point.

If necessary, tell the ones pushing for the change that they're entitled to with-hold their emotional labour from anyone who begins a post in a way they don't feel is inclusive.

I believe that's modern-speak for "if the OP annoys you, click away and reply to someone else".

@MareofBeasttown

To be honest, I am educating myself about all these issues. There is quite a lot I do not know. I didn't realise that ladies was classist, for instance. "Hi Everyone" would probably be better; I just dip in and out of FB Groups and often don't think hard about these things.

There are also some trans women in the group and they don't demand special treatment at all. I tend to talk about neutral topics like Netflix, local history, local events and so on.. Once though the topic of JK Rowling came up and I just kept mum because I felt too unsure of myself!

Erm - with regards trans women surely they are getting special treatment by virtue of being men in a women's group?

How do they present and how would the group feel about a bearded jeans wearing trans woman?

I think the decision will be up to the group leader, who is a young, sweet woman and I think keen on inclusivity, so she may change it.

@Standrewsschool The person in question refers to themselves as an "Enby" so I presume that is common usage? I had to Google it:) I am not sure if they are male or female? It is a minefield!

What I think is "no thank you".

There are also some trans women in the group and they don't demand special treatment at all.

Presumably because they are actively pleased to be called 'ladies'.

I'm not a fan of 'ladies' at all tbh. I'd probably say 'Hello all/everyone".

The OP said the group actually states that it welcomes people who consider themselves to be non-binary, so I'm not sure it's really fair to expect them not to join if they aren't women. If it didn't state that NB were welcome, then asking 'Well why are you wanting to join a women's group?' would be fair enough.

The mention of non-binary people should be removed from the group's website, as this seems to be the underlying problem.

Why join a ladies'/women's group if you don't want to be addressed as a woman?

Seriously? Very seriously? This is a group for women who will be addressed as women. If you don't want that, don't join.

I mean ok, join, but don't try and change the rules.

My boss says ‘Hello ladies’ when there are only women there. I find it really creepy but can’t work out why. He kind of pronounces it ‘ladyeez’.

I'm not a fan of referring to women as 'ladies' but would use the term if I wanted to.

Eugh, I hate 'ladeez' almost as much as 'girls' but wtf is a Women's Group thinking accommodating men and policing language like this. I'd be ladying and talking gynaecology all the time.

Are you paid for your role in the group, or is it voluntary? If no pay = I'd be expressing myself however I pleased, 'Ladies' is not yet classed as an offensive or pejorative word in the English language and you have every right to use it.

If they would boot you from the group for something as innocuous as that, is it really worth your time and are they valuing your effort and engagement?

I like the word "ladies" as a form of address. It conjures up pleasant images of women dressed to the nines. Or attending a show: "Ladies and Gentlemen". Or having dinner with female friends "Hello ladies, what can I get you". Why should we be forced to give up yet another word that brings us together as females? It is removing nuance from our language and it is also all so joyless.

@MareofBeasttown

I think the decision will be up to the group leader, who is a young, sweet woman and I think keen on inclusivity, so she may change it.

@Standrewsschool The person in question refers to themselves as an "Enby" so I presume that is common usage? I had to Google it:) I am not sure if they are male or female? It is a minefield!

If you have the opportunity to discuss it with her, ask about how such a rule would be enforced.

In my experience, it leads to people appointing themselves as prefects, and policing posts for infringements. They hector the OP to change it, and report the post to the group moderator if she doesn't do it fast enough. All of this creates bad feeling, as you might imagine.

But the worst case scenario, is the disaster that follows if someone posts about some kind of personal catastrophe, needing sympathy and practical support, and in their panic, forgets the new rules about inclusive language. And one of the self-appointed inclusive language enforcers is one of the first people to reply to the thread... It's an absolute clusterfuck!

So say no now.

@EatSleepRantRepeat

Are you paid for your role in the group, or is it voluntary? If no pay = I'd be expressing myself however I pleased, 'Ladies' is not yet classed as an offensive or pejorative word in the English language and you have every right to use it.

If they would boot you from the group for something as innocuous as that, is it really worth your time and are they valuing your effort and engagement?

No, nobody is paid. It's just an informal social group. I haven't been told off in particular for using "Hi ladies". ( sorry if I gave that impression) Just that the enby person has asked that this term not be used in general. I won't be booted and neither will anyone else:) It's a polite and civilised convo.

@LaetitiaASD the transwomen in the group present as quite feminine ( is it ok to say that), probably more feminine than me ( I wear jeans all the time and almost never wear dresses or skirts ). I think I would be ok with a bearded transwoman joining the group, because we don't share any intimate spaces ( toilets or anything). I am still figuring out my feelings on this.

Esther has the correct response to this request.

mobile.twitter.com/OkBiology/status/1450237190995382280

I just kept mum

Steady.

@Kanaloa

Can’t they just say ‘hi.’ Or ‘hi everybody.’ Hi ladies and enbies just sounds daft. What’s the next step - ‘hi ladies, enbies and Geminis?’ A simple greeting doesn’t need to include everyone’s every identity point.

Yes, or indeed, why say anything at all? Best to just nod, smile and all go home.

My first thought was 'fuck right off'.

This was also my second and third thought.