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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please don't use the greeting "Hi ladies"

129 replies

MareofBeasttown · 20/10/2021 16:33

I am a member of a women's social group which is friendly and inclusive. Non-binary people are also allowed to join and this is mentioned on the website. A member is now suggesting that the word 'women' in the group's name should be taken out and it be changed to "women and enby". She is also arguing that greetings like "Hi Ladies" should not be used. Instead, she suggests" Hi Ladies and Enbies". What do people think?

OP posts:
userchange987 · 20/10/2021 17:47

Wtf is an enby?

Standrewsschool · 20/10/2021 17:49

Enby I think is the letters N and B said as a word. Ie N -B (say it out loud).

I’ve never seen the term ‘Enby’ before,

N B short for no-bindery.

ArabellaScott · 20/10/2021 17:49

@MareofBeasttown

To be honest, I am educating myself about all these issues. There is quite a lot I do not know. I didn't realise that ladies was classist, for instance. "Hi Everyone" would probably be better; I just dip in and out of FB Groups and often don't think hard about these things.

There are also some trans women in the group and they don't demand special treatment at all. I tend to talk about neutral topics like Netflix, local history, local events and so on.. Once though the topic of JK Rowling came up and I just kept mum because I felt too unsure of myself!

OP, you sound like a kind and sensible person. Honestly, I just wouldn't worry too much. I don't know why anyone feels everyone should be educated to endless rambling, nonsensical pontifications on other people's identity - why should the 'enby' person not educate themselves as to the history and culture of why the word 'ladies' is warm, inclusive and welcoming to many?

There are some people who are what we call 'professionally offended'. If they're going to kick off about every minor, innocuous point of language, I somehow suspect they are not going to be contributing to the group very much. Mutual respect and fairness, fine. But that kind of policing of language can very quickly destroy a group.

ArabellaScott · 20/10/2021 17:50

@userchange987

Wtf is an enby?
A non-binary person.

A person who believes they are not a man or a woman but are 'outside' the 'gender binary'.

It doesn't make sense, of course, as gender, being an invented range of stereotypes, isn't a binary.

Sex is dimorphic, there is definitely no third sex, but nobody seems to like it when we bring that up.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 20/10/2021 17:51

Honestly this all sounds like far too much hard work!

Peanutsandchilli · 20/10/2021 17:54

Wtf is an enby? Ladies is fine. It's a women's group, after all.

NonnyMouse1337 · 20/10/2021 17:55

Unfortunately, this is standard modus operandi by gender believers. They always join women's groups, never men's groups. They despise womanhood and the words associated with women but can never be bothered to set up their own groups, so prefer to take over and ruin existing ones.

Initially they will be very quiet when they join. After a while all the whining starts about how they feel sooo excluded and triggered by the group name, words and phrases that are used and so on. Once there are a handful of them, they will keep guilt tripping all the women about changing the group name and all sorts of silly demands, usually to do with policing women's speech and words. Instead of putting their foot down, usually admin and other members try to 'be kind' and bend over backwards making all sorts of changes.

What was once a nice space for women to chat becomes a place that males and females who despise womanhood like to insert themselves into and make others feel like walking on eggshells.

I've seen this happen again and again in all sorts of women's online groups. In extreme cases, once there are a sufficient number of gender believers, they will kick off some big drama and demand women who don't comply are kicked out of the group. Then they will demand some enbies are appointed as admin or mods because they are so oppressed and require representation. 🙄 Then the takeover is complete as they kick out anyone who doesn't tow the line or gets fed up of these childish types ruining a good thing.

Regarding 'Hi ladies', I've never understood why some women get so worked up about it. I prefer to use 'Hi everyone' when I post but I'm not going to crumble if someone else says 'Hi ladies'. There's more important things to worry about in the grand scheme of things.

ISpyCobraKai · 20/10/2021 17:58

A women's group with non-binary and transwomen in it, you can't say ladies but think you should say enbies.
WTF?

No thank you.

Doomscrolling · 20/10/2021 17:59

I don’t like “ladies” personally, as I am not a lady, I’m a woman. I don’t do ladylike and all that performative gendered nonsense.

But I’m a grumpy feminist.

Whatwouldscullydo · 20/10/2021 18:00

Do the women know there are males present?

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 20/10/2021 18:00

if people were prepared to join when it was called Vipers Women’s Group then they knew what they were getting. Changing it to accommodate someone’s current self identification could easily put off potential new members who want to join a women’s group because they simply want to talk to other women , not to feel they have to tread around someone’s imaginary gender.

This is really not meant to sound flippant, but I always think of the history of Wimbledon in cases like this. If you ask 100 random people: "Which sport was the famous club in Wimbledon (and now known simply by that name) set up over a century ago to facilitate playing?", most of them will look at you witheringly, like you've asked them to tell you what 1+1 is - but you'll struggle to get even one of the 100 to give you the correct answer of 'croquet'.

Of course, it's 'only' sport, but I see the principle as the same. This club was set up for the playing of croquet and then, at some point, somebody introduced tennis as well. Well, we all know which one hugely dominates its whole raison d'etre and identity now.

There would have been a time when the croquet fans were perturbed that the stated focus of the club was being diversified; and then, before long, they likely all left as 'their' club had been taken over and was now no longer 'theirs'.

Some of them probably held out and complained - asking why the tennis fans even wanted to join them instead of simply starting their own tennis club; but I doubt it was very long before the remaining croquet fans were seen as hugely out of step, divisive, unfriendly, unwelcoming and, effectively, THEY became what was wrong with the new, improved 'all happy together' club and were, in all likelihood, asked or at least 'encouraged' to put up and shut up or leave.

Interesting....

userchange987 · 20/10/2021 18:01

A person who believes they are not a man or a woman but are 'outside' the 'gender binary'.

Thanks. For people that don't like to be pigeon holed they seem to spend a heck of a lot of time coming up with new labels.

Wigglegiggle0520 · 20/10/2021 18:04

@ISpyCobraKai

A women's group with non-binary and transwomen in it, you can't say ladies but think you should say enbies. WTF?

No thank you.

This.
BoxOfDreams · 20/10/2021 18:08

There are also some trans women in the group and they don't demand special treatment at all so it's not a women's group at all, what with NB and T, it's just a social group.

I run a women's social group for women over a certain age. We're friendly but we're not inclusive of other sexes or other age groups. Women should be allowed to assemble without being targeted by those who don't fit the remit!

If there was a BAME social group should it be ok to say you identify as BAME to join? If not why not?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/10/2021 18:10

Interesting discussion. I've decided to proudly reclaim all language politely referring to women. Ladies, girls, women, madam, sisters, dame, dowager, matriarch and the rest. I'm so pissed off with men (and foolish women) policing women's language that I'll be spraying around these worlds with abandon. Grin

ShagMeRiggins · 20/10/2021 18:13

@PronounssheRa

Why have they joined a women's group if they don't consider themself to be a women
This is my question as well.

Having been “schooled” Hmm via various YouTube clips and Twitter, my understanding is that NB people reject both woman and man as labels/categories/definitions.

The only reason I can see for anyone NB to join is with the goal to change the system from within.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 20/10/2021 18:13

I also agree that some people with 'non-traditional' identities actually base their identity on being obscure, once they've already rejected what most people accept without thinking twice about and started the journey away from the 'norm'.

The more mainstream their identity becomes, the more they're convinced that, because they feel very unmainstream, they must have oversimplified things and then start looking for something more compartmentalised.

Ergo, some people (and I am by no means claiming that this applies to all or most people identifying as other than their binary biological sex) will often never stop their search and never be happy to be 'pinned down' into a commonly-accepted group: thus their own chosen way of identifying is as 'different', which they paradoxically want to be both embraced as 'ordinary' and recognised as resolutely and necessarily 'out of the ordinary'.

CuriousUnderTheStairs · 20/10/2021 18:23

What on earth is an 'enby'?

BTW I'd go with 'hello ladies and everyone else' as a greeting. Why should gender specific language likd ladies/women be phased out for a few self obsessed nutters ?

Hathertonhariden · 20/10/2021 18:27

If you start saying "hi everyone" the TW will be offended that you aren't recognising them as women. You have to keep on saying what you're saying and if the NBs aren't happy gently suggest that they might be happier in another group.

TheOrigRights · 20/10/2021 18:32

I need to google enbi!

TheOrigRights · 20/10/2021 18:32

*enby

MassiveHoard · 20/10/2021 18:33

Ffs, wtf is a non binary person doing in a group for women aka the female sex or female gender if you're determined to be inclusive? I thought that was the point, they don't identity as a woman or a man. Confused

Hathertonhariden · 20/10/2021 18:33

Or explain to the NBs that not using "Ladies" means that you are not validating the tw and as Stonewall has said that they are the most oppressed group in society and that they are likely to commit suicide if they are misgendered you have use "ladies" on safeguarding grounds.

MassiveHoard · 20/10/2021 18:33

Enby=NB

Summerfun54321 · 20/10/2021 18:35

“Alright you bunch of cunts” would be suitable for a group of vagina havers. But maybe a little too informal?