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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Question Time right now!

999 replies

Seeingadistance · 14/10/2021 23:24

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 19/10/2021 12:16

ThumbWitchesAbroad

I apologise. I was lazy and used your quote because it clearly highlighted Georgist's point. That being in answer to.

Another one - why do women and girls have to justify keeping men and boys out of their sports? (an excellent question)

George answered

I think perhaps the biggest reason is that a significant minority of women are sympathetic or in favour.

Some links and then

Why do you think they think this?

I should have said that I wholeheartedly agree with you, Thumb, on your post but was borrowing that line.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 19/10/2021 12:18

No worries,@Helleofabore - thank you :) - glad we agree! Thanks

Kosmin · 19/10/2021 13:50

*Well, as Ross Tucker has tried to explain - sport is about trying to find people who are good at physical activities. Excelling in technique, training, and natural advantage.

If you didn't classify by sex, then the main thing elite sport would be doing is identifying male people. All other performance factors are dwarfed by sex.

Every single Olympic competitor in almost every event would be male, and 50% of the population would from birth, be precluded from ever competing.*

This isn't quite correct.
More than 50% are precluded from competing at the highest level. Just as many women are precluded from competing at the highest levels in women's sports as men are precluded from competing at the highest levels of a theoretical "open" category. Strictly, this is due to a combination of genetic factors, and cultural/societal (i.e. access to facilities, competition and a tradition of focusing on particular sports). In practice it means many sports would not just be dominated by men. They would be dominated by small groups of men. For example, sprints by men of West African origin, distance by men of east African origin (in particular the Kalenjin tribe), equestrian events by rich men, basketball by tall men, ice hockey by men from icy regions, etc.

Below the highest levels this ceases to be the case. Women are competitive in "open" competition at club level, so they are not precluded from competing. Moreover, at the club level it is often clear that the other factors precluding competition are more significant (e.g. if you investigate the top 100 runners in a marathon, the majority are male, but if you do physiological tests you will find ALL of them share characteristics which enable them to run fast. Similarly if you look at those in the middle and the back of the pack, you will find they lack the characteristics to run fast.

So I'm not sure the argument women would be precluded adds anything to the reasons normally given, (e.g. safety).

There are similar arguments about why it is important for women's representation to equal men's representation (e.g. proportion of women on boards of large companies). The difference here is that men came from a much wider range of backgrounds are represented. There were a lot working class men who worked themselves up from the shop floor. Men were given opportunities explicitly because they were men. It wasn't the case that only a very small proportion of men could attain these roles. The competition really was open to a large proportion of men. And as female representation has increased this has also included women from a variety of backgrounds. If instead it was simply a case of replacing some privileged men with some privileged women then it would be questionable how much this achieved relative to instead broadening across by other factors, e.g. class or race.

What sport is "about" depends on people's attitudes. Is it really about elite sport, with all levels below acting on as feeders to the elite? (i.e. we only do sport at school in order to see if we are good enough to qualify for the Olympics or have a professional career) Or is sport really about the lower levels (and if so, is it more about participation or competition?)?

NecessaryScene · 19/10/2021 14:05

Women are competitive in "open" competition at club level, so they are not precluded from competing.

Well, elite women can compete with average men. Women athletes are currently competing in the Olympics will find themselves in regional club events.

Women currently competing in regional club events will be out.

The club events would still be 95%+ male.

And all other factors you cite are minuscule compared to sex. They're barely worth discussing. European runners can and do win sprints, and the margins involved are tiny.

And athletes gravitate to events their physique and biology favours. Short people don't go into basketball, they're more likely to do something like gymnastics. There are a suite of available events for a range of physiologies.

There is no suite of events for females. Not everyone wants to do equestrian events.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 19/10/2021 14:18

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Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Helleofabore · 19/10/2021 14:23

And just a reminder that at least two elite women's football teams have been beaten by school aged boys teams.

And that there is also a safety issue involved in any sport that involves any contact of a male with females.

NecessaryScene · 19/10/2021 14:30

And that there is also a safety issue involved in any sport that involves any contact of a male with females.

Or a Klingon with humans.

Artichokeleaves · 19/10/2021 14:32

Why aren't female humans allowed their own sport mummy?

Because some male humans want to use it and say they can't.

Do female humans get that say over male sport? Do they decide what male humans can and can't do?

No.

Why do these male humans feel they control and decide what sport female people can have for themselves?

Well this is where we talk about this male supremacism thing. But keep in mind that at the same time as we talk about this sex based imbalance and this being why female humans need sex based rights to keep male humans from just taking everything off them and walking all over them, remember that we're supposed to maintain a linguistic illusion that sex doesn't actually exist. And that no one is supposed to know who to oppress.

But they clearly do, mummy!

Yeah.

Call the royal physician. Call an intermission!
His majesty is wide open to ridicule and scorn
The king is in the altogether the altogether it's altogether
it's altogether the very least the king has ever worn....

Kosmin · 19/10/2021 14:38

@NecessaryScene
Well, elite women can compete with average men. Women athletes are currently competing in the Olympics will find themselves in regional club events.

Regional club events are a high level - far, far above an average man (either in terms of genetic capability or actual performances).

The 800m is an example of an event with a big difference between men and women.
There are approximately 600 men who achieved the women's 800m qualifying time of 1:59.50 this year:
www.thepowerof10.info/rankings/rankinglist.aspx?event=800&agegroup=ALL&sex=M&year=2021

I have no idea what the average adult man could or did achieve, but it would be far below the 600th (probably outside the 1 millionth - it would depend on what age range you considered etc.)
Fewer than 200 could beat the women's world record.

The marathon is an example of an event with a smaller difference. Fewer than 100 men in the UK have ever equaled or beaten the women's world record!
(This list was last updated in 2006 and there will have been several who ran faster since
www.gbrathletics.com/uk/mc99.htm)

It's not an argument for open competition. There are enough other reasons against that. But I don't think good argument could be made for women's sports using the point you made. It doesn't have to. Some women's events evolved organically and have always been popular (e.g. tennis - women playing in Wimbledon from the 19th century). Others have had to struggle and are only recently much progress. Women want to play and men and women want to watch.

MistandMud · 19/10/2021 14:44

Good grief, Kosmin, it's simpler than that. Women want fair competition; I want to watch elite women much more than I want to watch mediocre men.

Kosmin · 19/10/2021 14:45

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Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post

Runningupthecurtains · 19/10/2021 14:45

@Artichokeleaves

I would start this well child women used to have their own sports but men said they shouldn't do anything too strenuous or it might damage them. So women campaigned and demonstrated (with placards) and demonstrated (by doing) that they could manage all the sports and event that men did so in the 1960's they were finally allowed to run further than 400m in the Olympics and by the start of the 21st century they were allowed to triple jump and pole vault. Suddenly the men that were so worried that women would combust if they half a mile decided that actually it didn't matter if they got kicked by men and they stopped trying to protect women from themselves and decided to throw them to the wolves instead.

Kosmin · 19/10/2021 14:46

@MistandMud

Good grief, Kosmin, it's simpler than that. Women want fair competition; I want to watch elite women much more than I want to watch mediocre men.
That's what I said. People want to watch. Hence there is no reason for change.
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 19/10/2021 14:48

Apologies, I am going to do that rude thing again!

Just as many women are precluded from competing at the highest levels in women's sports as men are precluded from competing at the highest levels of a theoretical "open" category. Strictly, this is due to a combination of genetic factors, and cultural/societal (i.e. access to facilities, competition and a tradition of focusing on particular sports).

Mmm! Somewhat outdated argument there, not just here in the UK either. I'll go onto genetics etc next but: Over recent years with a change in attitude, training regimen, dietary knowledge etc etc, there are a growing number off sports that men are beginning to see parity, and the occasional win, by women. Ironically at grass roots they all have name like Iron Man, Ultra REALLY Hard, Double Deca (that one is real) etc.

In less than a decade we have gone from research concluding It seems very unlikely that women will ever outperform men in ultra-triathlons from Ironman to Double Iron ultra-triathlon.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4035499/

To ultras being won, in stages or overall, by women. The donination remains, but is being whittled away and science is beginning to catch up and re-address the possibilities.

In practice it means many sports would not just be dominated by men. They would be dominated by small groups of men. For example, sprints by men of West African origin, distance by men of east African origin (in particular the Kalenjin tribe), equestrian events by rich men, basketball by tall men, ice hockey by men from icy regions, etc. Leaving aside the financial distraction. East and West African men aren't necessarily winning because of their race, or even their genes. That has been dismissed as lazy thunking for decades - probably since a year or so after Mamo Wolde and Abebe Bikila dominated.

  1. BMI. Living and training skinny. One genetic advantage dos reside n the lighter musculature of many African runners - Then again, Australians and flipper feet!
  1. Barefoot running. Being poor
  1. Diet. Again, being poor, having restricted dietary ingredient. Not to say this is nutritionally poor. Just that our Western excess plays a role.
  1. Psychological. Well, you said it yourself, I think. East African runners are unbeatable! And they believe that too! Trite? Well, not really. Being poor = making a choice to devote yourelf to a sport. Some counttries have boxing, and dominate the world scene, East Africa has distance running.
  1. Geography. That really expensive high altitude traning comes for free
  1. Economics. Again, we go back to being ppor as a direct motivational factor

They can be beaten. Ask Jordan Hasay!

Below the highest levels this ceases to be the case. Women are competitive in "open" competition at club level, so they are not precluded from competing.

Erm. The step between club and elite is still lacking for female athletes. And, for many, the first step at grass roots is missing too! Which is why school sport is so important.

Moreover, at the club level it is often clear that the other factors precluding competition are more significant (e.g. if you investigate the top 100 runners in a marathon, the majority are male, but if you do physiological tests you will find ALL of them share characteristics which enable them to run fast. Similarly if you look at those in the middle and the back of the pack, you will find they lack the characteristics to run fast.

I refer you back to points 1 - 6. But more, I have no idea what you mean by that. Generally, broad brush strokes, I see what you are driving at. But specifically? Look at any riunning club and tell me they are predominantly male?

So I'm not sure the argument women would be precluded adds anything to the reasons normally given, (e.g. safety).

Ooh, I missd that link too. Do you men adding women to preodminantly male sports hardly happens so there is no significant additional risk?

There are similar arguments about why it is important for women's representation to equal men's representation (e.g. proportion of women on boards of large companies). The difference here is that men came from a much wider range of backgrounds are represented. There were a lot working class men who worked themselves up from the shop floor. Men were given opportunities explicitly because they were men. It wasn't the case that only a very small proportion of men could attain these roles. The competition really was open to a large proportion of men. And as female representation has increased this has also included women from a variety of backgrounds. If instead it was simply a case of replacing some privileged men with some privileged women then it would be questionable how much this achieved relative to instead broadening across by other factors, e.g. class or race.

Yeah, well, we're all for taking down the old boy's network, dismantling the status quo. But seriously, this is 2021!

What sport is "about" depends on people's attitudes. Is it really about elite sport, with all levels below acting on as feeders to the elite? (i.e. we only do sport at school in order to see if we are good enough to qualify for the Olympics or have a professional career) Or is sport really about the lower levels (and if so, is it more about participation or competition?)?

And the answer is all things to all people. Some will be fun runners, others will be elite. And there should be room for all within that. Which takes us back to equity, or parity. Which will differ depending on each sport.

But ALL sports can be equally open to male and female, rich, poor participants. There just has to be a will to make it so... and no male preening to preventit.

Think about the one single solitary man who vetoed women ski jumping. I am not saying I wished him dead but now that he is (just this year) maybe things will cage in the International Ski Federation. They may drag their thinking out of the Victorian era!

Think about Rugby (until veyr recently) who chamioned garss roots for all and changed teh club/youth game to make it viable and then pumped money in to make women's rugby well funded.

More esoteric? Think about polo and how many kids get into the sport. Then look at cycle polo and tell me that lateral thining gets you nowhere!

People play sport for may reasons. Their genetics do not come into it, intially. Unless you are an exuberant stocky child in the Eastern Bloc of course!-

Blibbyblobby · 19/10/2021 14:57

Just as many women are precluded from competing at the highest levels in women's sports as men are precluded from competing at the highest levels of a theoretical "open" category...

What sport is "about" depends on people's attitudes. Is it really about elite sport, with all levels below acting on as feeders to the elite?

Why can't it be both? Not everyone can be an elite athlete. Many people simply enjoy participating. That's not a reason to have no elite sports. They have value for the people who do them, the people who watch them, and the people who are inspired by them even if those people can never compete with the elite.

Yes, only a small number of women can win elite women's sports.

If you add male bodies to women's sport, that small group of people will include fewer, or possibly no, female people, while the number of male people who can win elite sports will increase. Literally, opportunities have been moved from female to male people. There is no way you can cut trans women's inclusion in female sports and not hit that fundamental fact.

If you think the cutoff between male and female is unfair and should be shifted in favour of males that is your call, but you must own that it is a decision to take away from female people in favour of male.

Kosmin · 19/10/2021 14:59

So I'm not sure the argument women would be precluded adds anything to the reasons normally given, (e.g. safety).

Ooh, I missd that link too. Do you men adding women to preodminantly male sports hardly happens so there is no significant additional risk?

No. I meant reasons like safety are a sufficient reason for there to be separate women's competitions.

andyoldlabour · 19/10/2021 14:59

NecessaryScene

"Well, elite women can compete with average men. Women athletes are currently competing in the Olympics will find themselves in regional club events."

I totally agree with this, but would add something to give an idea of the gap in performance between an above average male athlete (in this case me in 1982) and a two time Olympic gold medallist (2012 and 2016), five time World champion, competing in cycling's ten mile time trial on the same course.

My time in 1982 for the 10 miles - 21m 53s. I didn't win the event.

The following time set in 2015 which is a women's course record.

Q10/22 - 22:37 - Joanna Rowsell

I wish to see women's sport confined to females, everyone else can compete in an "open" category.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 19/10/2021 15:00

My apologies @Kosmin but you appear to be arguing both ends aganst the middle there.

I got lost somewehere in I have no idea what the average adult man could or did achieve, but it would be far below the 600th (probably outside the 1 millionth - it would depend on what age range you considered etc.) Fewer than 200 could beat the women's world record.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 19/10/2021 15:02

No. I meant reasons like safety are a sufficient reason for there to be separate women's competitions.

OK! So what's all that about open comps and genes and finances?

NecessaryScene · 19/10/2021 15:03

I would start this well child women used to have their own sports but men said they shouldn't do anything too strenuous or it might damage them.

Some of the more extreme equity campaigners might suggest that as redress men should be excluded from sport for a while and go off and do something more productive with their greater strength, and not waste it on competition for the sake of it.

It would make more sense for competitive recreational physical activities to be reserved to females.

And I don't really see the need to provide parallel activities for males. No point having two versions of the same event, so if you only have one, female makes more sense.

Runningupthecurtains · 19/10/2021 15:03

@HoardingSamphireSaurus
I remember, probably about 30 years ago, seeing someone theorise that ultra sports might actually suit female physiology better than male (greater fat reserves etc) and it being dismissed so is it possible there something in that after all?

  • Note not that I am suggesting that if this is the case that that would justify men in women's sport.
andyoldlabour · 19/10/2021 15:10

Kosmin

"I have no idea what the average adult man could or did achieve, but it would be far below the 600th (probably outside the 1 millionth - it would depend on what age range you considered etc.)
Fewer than 200 could beat the women's world record."

Those figures are just for UK runners and only for last year.
Do you realise that over 15,000 men have run faster than the current women's marathon record?

andyoldlabour · 19/10/2021 15:14

Runningupthecurtains

In UK cycling, there is the absolute legend Beryl Burton, who in 1967, in the National 12 Hour time trial championship, set a distance which beat the women's record, but was also further than the men's record set at the same event.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_Burton#Record-breaker

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 19/10/2021 15:18

@Runningupthecurtains yes, it was hypothesized that the differences in women's overall physical make up could make them significantly better at ultra sports. Body fat%, fatigue rating, pain management etc etc.

Initially it was an interesting hypothesis based on geographical differences between societies - looking at extreme living conditions, altitude, cold, heat etc

Then it was generally dismissed, once the sociology and psychologoists got involved - women wouldn't sacrifice 'being a woman, a mother' for a sport. Then Liz McColgan and others happened.

Then biomechnics and physiology started to change training regimes and more and more women started to get involved in the back room logistics as opposed to being the athlete. Now there is a general acceptance of sexed training regimes and lots of things have changed.

The optimism of women will dominate ultra's has been tempered with a creeping idea of possible parity. That's why there is quite a focus on the women who do win stages, or whole races.

And the increasing phenomenon of women returning to elite sport after giving birth. THAT is causing great ripples at the moment!

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 19/10/2021 15:21

Oh good drief. I had forgotten about Beryl Burton! Everything an athlete is not supposed to be: female, of ill health, a mother, older....