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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Question Time right now!

999 replies

Seeingadistance · 14/10/2021 23:24

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

OP posts:
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SchadenfreudePersonified · 18/10/2021 21:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 18/10/2021 21:41

Should have said - although an estimated 1/50 claim transgender status, not all are sent to the female estate - though if even one is, it's one too many.

Datun · 18/10/2021 21:49

[quote Georgist]@Datun
There are loads of coherent and intelligent male supremacists.

Are you sure?! Which individuals or arguments do you find intelligent?

Why do think "race realism" is so widely dismissed if there are any intelligent points in its favour?

There are women who are OK with trans women in sport. I think you'd be very hard pressed to find any non-white race realists. That seems odd if you think their arguments are more intelligent than arguments for trans rights.[/quote]
I didn't say the argument was intelligent. I said the people making it are not unintelligent.

Male supremacy doesn't depend upon intelligence or lack of it. It depends on thinking you're entitled to dominate and oppress women.

Which is exactly how we have ended up with convicted sex offenders, completely openly and with the full understanding of the prison authorities, pretending they are women and being sent a female prison. And the prison service having to pay for security guards to flank them, to prevent them from attacking the women. It's an insane situation by anyone's book.

It is a demonstration of male supremacy.

It's the same argument that Professor McKinnon makes.

That women are just collateral damage, and that harm to them is irrelevant, as long as the men get to do what they want.

Paying for guards to restrain a sex offender because you've incarcerated him with vulnerable women. You honestly couldn't make it up.

OldCrone · 18/10/2021 21:50

"34 percent said they should be able to compete under their gender identity"
Why do you think they think this?

Why are you asking us? Why don't you ask them?

OldCrone · 18/10/2021 21:51

That seems odd if you think their arguments are more intelligent than arguments for trans rights.

What do you mean by 'arguments for trans rights'? What rights do trans people not have that other people have?

Datun · 18/10/2021 21:54

I'm just in case I'm not being clear, McKinnon's intelligence is not in dispute.

Graduating first from the University of Victoria in British Columbia, McKinnon completed a Ph.D. from the University of Waterloo with a thesis on assertions, “Why You Don’t Need to Know What You’re Talking About” (the literal subtitle).

Later, publishing a book on this subject titled The Norms of Assertion: Truth, Lies and Warrant, in which McKinnon argues “that in some special contexts, we can lie.”

KittenKong · 18/10/2021 21:57

‘Fibs fibs and gimme an A’ - that the one?

aliasundercover · 18/10/2021 21:57

in case I'm not being clear, McKinnon's intelligence is not in dispute

McKinnon's status as a world class athlete, however ...

RedDogsBeg · 18/10/2021 22:06

I don't care naught for fairness, but I don't think it's the most important either.
I'll elaborate, but I'm interested to know what you think fairness requires or implies.

Do please elaborate on why you don't think fairness is the most important. What to you is the most important?

What do you consider fairness to mean?

RedDogsBeg · 18/10/2021 22:16

Georgist your YouGov survey said the majority disagreed that TW should take part in women's sports in fact on that question there was disagreement across the board, so where are you getting it from that people agree that TW should take part in women's sports? Did you not look at the survey?

SchadenfreudePersonified · 18/10/2021 22:22

Just leaving this here

twitter.com/CervixOwner/status/1450197488535736321

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 19/10/2021 01:51

There are women who would be ok with TW in female sports. They are the same women who are known as allies, or who simply don't understand the ramifications of allowing male bodies full access to female spaces of any kind.

You'll see these women standing alongside the TW and the TRAs - happily selling the feminist legacy down the river for approval by the males - because they need that approval.

As a rider to the TW in sport situation - the example of Renée Richards, before all this gender stuff took off. Renée's experiences and current take on the situation are interesting - a TW who had SRS and then sued to compete in the women's category of tennis aged 40+ (where Renée was beaten by Virginia Wade)
www.si.com/tennis/2019/06/28/renee-richards-gender-identity-politics-transgender-where-are-they-now

Renée does not believe that gender ID gives someone the right to compete outside of their sex category.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 19/10/2021 06:57

pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/tyler-o-neil/2019/04/29/trans-woman-sets-world-records-olympian-decries-pointless-unfair-playing-field-n65486

I wonder whether there was any prize money at stake in this competition...

Helleofabore · 19/10/2021 08:03

For anyone who missed it in July, or wants to revisit it, here is the link to the webinar: A level playing field: Sex, gender and fairness in women's sport

www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/webinar-panel-video-level-playing-field-sex-gender-fairness-womens-sport/

The panel includes Dr Emma Hilton, Alyson Sydor (Canadian cyclist), Lynda Blade, Jon Pike, but also Mianne Bagger. Bagger campaigned to allow transitioned males to play professional women’s golf in 2000s.

In light of the research, they now feel differently.

NecessaryScene · 19/10/2021 08:20

There are women who would be ok with TW in female sports.

But also be clear about the distinction between women who say they would be okay, and actually are okay with it. I think there's a big gulf there.

From the SCEG's project report for their new trans guidelines:

The level of frustration, animosity and emotionality was high in the many of interviews. There was a lot of swearing, shouting, crying and anxiety displayed during interviews. A significant number of interviewees said that they would only be involved if anonymity was assured because people were afraid to say in public what they privately believed. The overwhelming majority of people who considered fairness and safety could not be achieved with transgender inclusion into female sport did not feel confident to voice these opinions. Some said that they had been threatened with sanction or disciplinary action if they spoke out. Many of the interviewees who held positions with sporting agencies said their personal opinions were in direct conflict with that of their employer or agency’s stated position, many felt they had no option but to remain silent in order to keep their job. This was a frequently voiced frustration which regularly reduced the interviewee to tears or hostility

Helleofabore · 19/10/2021 08:23

I also want to say something about this ideal of ‘scale of the issue’. I said it upthread as well.

What does the scale of how many males have to do with the issue? With the advantages they have, if just ONE participates in each sport around the world and are focused on getting to be world champion, they can cause harm to females - maybe injury but certainly displacement in teams, financial and educational opportunities etc. Also as we see, setting advantaged male records as female records so they may never be broken.

So it doesn’t even have to be one in each sport aiming for the world championships for one year. One competitor can stay at the top for a very long time and dominate. Look at the ages these males are that are doing this.

(Bridges the Cyclist has the potential to stay as a top women’s performer for Cycling in UK for a very long time as they are still young)

Blocking women all the whole and demotivating any up and coming female. It happens.

That is of course at Olympic level.

But the same could happen at county level. Just one playing for any county and that team then dominates the UK wide competition.

We keep having posters try to use this argument. All the time. It is not thought provoking, it is just another ill conceived and completely unsupported and unsupportable argument for ‘inclusion’.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/10/2021 08:43

I don't care naught for fairness, but I don't think it's the most important either.

Perhaps men who aren't quite as good as the rest should be able to dope? I mean they'd feel much better about it all, less depressed about being mediocre. We owe them that, and fairness isn't the most important thing is sports competitions.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/10/2021 08:44

It's quite clear that there is little public support for males in female sports.

Artichokeleaves · 19/10/2021 09:03

There are women who are ok with...

Yes.

There are. There are women perfectly happy to use mixed sex showers, mixed sex toilets, mixed sex hospital wards and refuges and mixed sex sports.

This is the third space obvious solution. Have a mixed sex option and plenty of women say they will be happy to use it as well as trans and NB people.

However those women's 'yes' does not trump other women's 'no'. Not least because if it does, we exclude many female people from female only provisions, which is insane.

So - do we go for answers in which everyone of both sexes and all gender choices have options, everyone is included and has equal access?

Or do we go for an answer that involves punishing and excluding a number of females for the better happiness of males?

Runningupthecurtains · 19/10/2021 09:04

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I don't care naught for fairness, but I don't think it's the most important either.

Perhaps men who aren't quite as good as the rest should be able to dope? I mean they'd feel much better about it all, less depressed about being mediocre. We owe them that, and fairness isn't the most important thing is sports competitions.

I'm really shit at sport, fat, lazy, menopausal it would be kind if anyone I was competing against was made to hop or run backwards or carry a heavy weight. Not particularly fair on them but hey I'd feel fabulous.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/10/2021 09:05

I'm really shit at sport, fat, lazy, menopausal it would be kind if anyone I was competing against was made to hop or run backwards or carry a heavy weight. Not particularly fair on them but hey I'd feel fabulous.

Exactly. I'll run against Usain Bolt, but he has to run with his shoelaces tied together.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/10/2021 09:05

There are women who would be ok with TW in female sports.

I'm sure there are some who are delighted to have them in their team. Hmm

Helleofabore · 19/10/2021 09:08

There are women who would be ok with TW in female sports.

And again, I say. So what?

It is the decision makers and decision influencers who matter.

There are girls and women who completely lack the empathy for both women who have been traumatised so badly they cannot be in toilets knowing there are males in the toilets or their religion forbids it. Those women prioritise males over females. They have always been in society.

There are those who simply aim to be nice and don’t think/can’t think about the consequences or have been told that there is no negative consequences, or whatever the current mantra derived tactic is. Some are politically motivated too.

But again, so what?

Does that mean we do what they want and shit the fuck up? Or do we continue to fight?

I think people also underestimate how many women have now been called to action after thinking all was ok. The issues came to my attention finally because I had a tweenager and now a teenager. Like so many others, I am now living with the effects of this ideology every day. I would love to see the statistics of the rise of women’s political activation in the past five years (coinciding with Stonewall’s pivot). I think it would alarm some people who feared women’s voices being heard. That is why they silenced them in the first place.

So, again. So what if 25% of women agree males should be allowed in female prisons. Do you honestly think that once the ramifications are made clear to them they will be still?

You keep posting yougov surveys.

Look at the one with the question asking about males using female toilets (or was it changing rooms ???) where they clarified that those male still had penises. Do some actual deeper level interpretation of the results. The numbers in support of this dropped dramatically.

Also then question, how many ‘women’ in that yougov survey were male? How many had personal motivations for supporting it? Of course, we will never know.

Do you ever personally talk to people about it?

I do. People who start out ‘oh be kind’ change as soon as you tell them 95+% retain their penises and that testosterone suppression is not reliable at all (endocrine specialists acknowledge this, it is established fact), that there is no proof transitioning decreases male criminality, and males consistently commit 98% of sex offences (the number of transitioned males convicted of sexual offenses is alarming enough by itself), and a reminder that a HUGE % of women and girls are sexually abused or worse raped in their lifetime and need to have their needs fully considered.

I have not yet seen a person I have discussed this with retain their original ‘males should be included’ point of view.

So, no. Like many others on this thread. I don’t look at those numbers and allow it to influence my view or my actions.

I know damn well that 25 years ago, I would have been one of those thoughtless ones who didn’t give others experiences a though. Until one by one I discovered friends and family who were sexual abuse and rape victims and finally understood their needs.

I also have been on this board long enough to have seen posters with many different motivations use the ‘you are the hateful minority’ argument. It doesn’t any truth behind it. It is taken directly from the clumsy and immature tactics repeated and used across the internet. That tactic is projection and it is not clever at all. In any way.

Why on earth would anyone who has read as widely as many of the posters on this thread be swayed by someone whatabouting about the other women who disagree?

So again, I say So what?

Helleofabore · 19/10/2021 09:10

That is shut the fuck up.

Autocucumber does that all that time. I must swear a lot or it is my arthritic fingers not getting across to the ‘U’.

BatmansBat · 19/10/2021 09:39

There are women who would be OK with transwomen in sport

Most people who say that they are women and argue for that here don’t seem to be involved with sports.

It is a bit the same with schools. There are some women without children who seem to be fine with gender teachings in the interest of what they consider to be inclusivity.

There are also some women who argue that transwomen should be allowed in women’s changing rooms. They also always seem to argue that they wouldn’t use them anyway or ask “why would you be naked in front of anyone”.

Anyone see a common trend here?