Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

I like your assumption that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid or ill-intentioned or both. Nah! I wasn't saying you are ill intentioned...

@Floisme

I love my son more than life itself but, if he started claiming the right to use women's or girls' services and spaces, I would have no qualms at all at letting him see how angry I was.

I'm just querying whether you would actually insist to him that he was trying to hurt you and other women, or whether you would - at least initially - put it to him that he hadn't considered or understood the implications.

(There was a post on another thread where someone observed that in a survey in a year 9 class revealed that the entire class thought changing sex was possible, meaning that men could actually give birth. Considering that level of ignorance, don't you think the default assumption for children should be of ignorance instead of malice?)

But once people are radicalised/brainwashed to believe identity trumps biology, why would existing segregation by biology matter to them? Similarly you could ask why people continue to believe various conspiracies despite evidence.

I think it might take a lot more intellectual capacity to break free from the propaganda if you've been brainwashed compared to if you were presented the propaganda and refutations side by side.

So are you going to join us in campaigning against anti-science gender ideology being taught in schools?

Parents shouldn't have to teach their children that they can't change sex after they've been taught in school that they can.

Why are you arguing against people here if you agree with them?

...Considering that level of ignorance, don't you think the default assumption for children should be of ignorance instead of malice?)

It's not ignorance.

Had you read further you would have seen that his is what kids are actually being taught!

You cannot, surely, have missed all of the news stories on this? Parents protesting the bad science being taught in schools? The various toolkits being used to teach very young children gender based twaddle?

If you have, perchance, missed all of that, then maybe you need a rethink before you continue pontificatng here. Get a good grounding in the realities of the situation you have launched yourself into!

Grab an information lifejacket!

God it's never ending. What if the child was like this, and said it like that, and truly believed this, then, then would you stop being annoyed about it?

And it's it's a really immature way of approaching this discussion. It's what children say when they're desperate for you to give them something. What if I do my homework, and go to bed early tomorrow night, and get up early on Saturday...then can I

I'm just querying whether you would actually insist to him that he was trying to hurt you and other women, or whether you would - at least initially - put it to him that he hadn't considered or understood the implications.

Im just querying???????
I'm just querying whether it is alright to let male rapists share cells with women because...............
I'm just querying whether it's alright to let male athletes beat the crap out of female athletes because....
I'm just querying whether we should let male teenagers share girls' changing rooms because....

Stop the querying and tell us what you really think!

(There was a post on another thread where someone observed that in a survey in a year 9 class revealed that the entire class thought changing sex was possible, meaning that men could actually give birth. Considering that level of ignorance, don't you think the default assumption for children should be of ignorance instead of malice?)

It's not ignorance, it's brainwashing, as you said yourself in an earlier post. They only thought that people could change sex because another teacher in the school had taught them that they could.

Do you agree that it is wrong for children in school to be taught things which are completely untrue and could be damaging to them if they believe them to be true?

I'm just querying whether you would actually insist to him that he was trying to hurt you and other women, or whether you would - at least initially - put it to him that he hadn't considered or understood the implications.
If he was claiming the right to use women's services and spaces, I imagine my initial reaction would be anger: partly at his total lack of consideration and partly with the people who had persuaded him it was ok to do so. Mothers do get angry you know, even with the people they love the most.

@Helleofabore

I like your assumption that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid or ill-intentioned or both.

I believe this is another repeated question.

What exactly are you disagreeing on with posters on this thread?

To give an example, someone said it was funny how men weren't clammering to compete in women's sports when there was less prize money and fewer opportunities.

I disputed whether that had anything to do with it and I tried to explain why I thought it might matter whether that was used as part of the argument.

To re-iterate, I think it might matter whether you consider the trans lobby has brainwashed a lot of people or whether you think they understand the situation the same as you and simply don't care about others.

I don't understand how anyone can assert this when gender is widely regarded to be a social construct, so not something to be supported by science anyway

This has probably already been commented on but just to add; until very recently maybe a year or two ago the prevailing orthodoxy was sex and gender are the same. It's still said in a few places and still very often the two are conflated even in legal Acts (either the GRA and/or the Equality Act)
So yes current year has it that gender is a social construct but only by dint of us wimmin banging on about it not being the same as sex as sex is fixed and immutable blah blah.

If you think that this whole thing has been rumbling on for over a decade now, we in some ways have achieved an awful lot ( in the dark sort of) and in other ways we've achieved sweet fuck all.
Still I'm bloody glad it's getting any time on tv/radio because for an awful long time I thought we'd be fighting in the dark forever.

Oh! I get it!

Do you think that what you are doing equates to Socratic Questioning!

Nope!

Mainly because you don't seem to have realised that you, the questioner, need to be really specific and focussed.

Which of the six type of Socratic questions are you fondly imagining you are posing?

I ask as you ought to recognise the fact that you have missed your mark when the person/people being questioned look back at you with a "WTF? He doesn't actually know this stuff?" look in their eyes!

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

@334bu

*I'm just querying whether you would actually insist to him that he was trying to hurt you and other women, or whether you would - at least initially - put it to him that he hadn't considered or understood the implications.*

Im just querying???????
I'm just querying whether it is alright to let male rapists share cells with women because...............
I'm just querying whether it's alright to let male athletes beat the crap out of female athletes because....
I'm just querying whether we should let male teenagers share girls' changing rooms because....

Stop the querying and tell us what you really think!

I've already said several times that I agree that male athletes should be banned from competing with women in contact sports. Yet people keep challenging me on whether I disagree with it. Yes, I still disagree. I haven't changed my mind in the last few hours.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Oh! I get it!

Do you think that what you are doing equates to Socratic Questioning!

Nope!

Mainly because you don't seem to have realised that you, the questioner, need to be really specific and focussed.

Which of the six type of Socratic questions are you fondly imagining you are posing?

I ask as you ought to recognise the fact that you have missed your mark when the person/people being questioned look back at you with a "WTF? He doesn't actually know this stuff?" look in their eyes!

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

I have quoted comments and asked for evidence of assertions people have made. How do you think that is not specific and focused?

So, when you asked this Consider the weight classes in boxing. Are these necessitated by biology? Do we actually need weight classes in sports like rugby and American football as well? (I think biology is likely to be useful in considering these issues, but it can't provide answers alone) you wanted what? To see if anyone one here knew what you know?

We keep on challenging you (aka asking you to explain what it is you actually mean) because you keep on asking daft questions. If you think that sex based differences are real and important and, for the dignity and safety of women (not to mention fairness, equity etc), need to be upheld, protected, then what the hell are you doing wasting time and effort being supposedly clever?

You sound more and more bereft of common sense with every post!

I have quoted comments and asked for evidence of assertions people have made. How do you think that is not specific and focused?

You've missed a post. I did explain!

You have asked broad brush stroke questions. Usually based on reactions to your previous broad brush strikes. You assert you are dong one thing when actually, you are simply blathering.

Be specific. We can take it. Honest!

To re-iterate, I think it might matter whether you consider the trans lobby has brainwashed a lot of people or whether you think they understand the situation the same as you and simply don't care about others.

To re-iterate, there has never been a poster on this thread that disputes that the trans lobby groups have influenced a lot of people in the regards of what they perceive is their rights, or indeed is their reality. Not one regular poster would dispute this.

whether you think they understand the situation the same as you and simply don't care about others.

It is also true to that there are many, many people who are not influenced by lobby groups. And there are many males who simply don't care about the needs of females.

Again, where are you attempting to go with your posts? It has been repeatedly asked and ignored. It seems you are determined to ram home something that regular posters who are on this thread are very aware of and keep saying to you, What does it matter?

Indeed, what does it matter if a person is so far entrenched in believing something that is based on a very flimsy foundation that will crash with the slightest challenge. These people are not the decision makers who are the priority to convince. And there are many very active women and men who are very well forward in doing this.

Many posters on this thread have historically been activating to these same decision makers.

So, what does it matter if an entrenched individual has been lied to about the legal status of their access to sports or prisons.

Something you have avoided answering or answer with ambiguity and further posturing.

What matters is that decision makers and influencers are influenced first. Those others you are so focused on, they come when the laws are solidified and guidance is given that protects women and girls.

This is not hard or complex.

Your posts lack clarity of thought and purpose. Do you honestly not understand why posters are constantly asking you these questions?

someone said it was funny how men weren't clammering to compete in women's sports when there was less prize money and fewer opportunities

Hello someone here. As has already been pointed out on this thread I didn't frame this as part of the argument I merely asked why men weren't lining up to get into womens sport in the past. Just querying as you would put it.

Why have figures suddenly changed? It's not about acceptance surely because we are told that trans people are the most marginalized and vulnerable people ever. In fact we are told there has been an increase in transphobia so it can't be that there has always been this percentage of men that actually are women but only now feel comfortable enough to speak up. So I was musing as to why now there is a huge uptick when men showed not the slightest desire to play women's sport a scant decade ago.

Much the same as 'just querying' where all the lady penises were when women had significantly few rights than men. How they managed to struggle manfully through life back in day without an uncontrollable need to live a life in which they couldn't vote, own a property, pursue many meaningful careers, have a bank account (unless daddy or hubby would vouch for them) etc.

Why only contact sports Georgist? So presumably safety matters to you, but not fairness. Why not fairness?

I've already said several times that I agree that male athletes should be banned from competing with women in contact sports
So presumably you think non contact sports are fair game? So safety kinda matters but screw fairness? What about something like cricket which is non contact but there is a greater danger to women from being hit by a ball bowled by a male bodied person? Fair game or not fair game?

So no men in female contact sports but ok in their prison cells?

Of course, having said all of that, and read others posting very simialr sentiments. I'd like to thank you, @GeorgieDear. It is always a joy when an arivist posts and opens up a whole new opportunity for us all to explain the basics; to point out, again and again, the falwed perceptions, lack of logic, internal inconsistencies, of gendered ideology.

That you come from a slightly more oblique angle is great. We can all re-phrase ourselves, say the same old same old, just slightly differently.

And my offer of an in depth conversation remains. All you have to do is pick your discipline and outline a specific question.... I can wait. Most lecturers have indefatiguable stores of patience

So I was musing as to why now there is a huge uptick when men showed not the slightest desire to play women's sport a scant decade ago.

Don't want to distract from the really productive discussion, but I know this one:

"If you build it, they will come".

To re-iterate, I think it might matter whether you consider the trans lobby has brainwashed a lot of people or whether you think they understand the situation the same as you and simply don't care about others.

It's both. That's patently obvious. Its almost both in the same sentence.

The prison service has said there are many men identifying as women in prison, in order to get into a female prison. Someone to access more victims, and some to have an easy ride.

On the other hand, there are children who genuinely believe you can change sex because they've been taught that in school by the likes of Stonewall and mermaids.

The Denton report, should you ever google it, will show you exactly how this campaigning has been allowed to take place. Exactly how deliberate it is. The fact that some of it has worked is entirely unsurprising. And one of the main reasons why women are campaigning to get the ideology out of schools.

I have personally been mired in this issue for at least six years. This is not our first rodeo.

Actually that is a misquote. The original is even more apposite

If you build it, he will come

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Is there an example of anyone who holds a position you disagree with on women's rights in relation to trans issues that you believe has been put forward in a coherent, intelligent manner.

If any such coherent arguments exist, could you also suggest a good rebuttal of them?