Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

@Runningupthecurtains

I've already said several times that I agree that male athletes should be banned from competing with women in contact sports So presumably you think non contact sports are fair game? So safety kinda matters but screw fairness? What about something like cricket which is non contact but there is a greater danger to women from being hit by a ball bowled by a male bodied person? Fair game or not fair game?

On this topic, this is an interesting diagram.

Is there an example of anyone who holds a position you disagree with on women's rights in relation to trans issues that you believe has been put forward in a coherent, intelligent manner.

No.

Because it is all based on heavily emotive reasoning and manipulation and pseudo science or theories that don't withstand robust peer review or produce consistent results when studies are repeated.

If you want to see the cutting edge of the trans position, go and read that World Rugby symposium publication that we keep referring you to go google and find for your self.

The World Rugby called for the most recent evidence last year to consider their guidance regarding women's safety. The evidence that was put forward failed to convince the very expert panel to prioritise male inclusion over female safety and fairness.

Google is your friend.

Is there any evidence that you have found convincing? Please post links to it if you have.

[quote Georgist]@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Is there an example of anyone who holds a position you disagree with on women's rights in relation to trans issues that you believe has been put forward in a coherent, intelligent manner.

If any such coherent arguments exist, could you also suggest a good rebuttal of them?[/quote]
I was asked that about 3 years ago. In real life. As others have said, not my first rodeo!

The simple answer is no.

Because women's rights are for women and trans rights, the ones we are saying no to, are for men.

If we women were being asked to square the women and transmen circle there would be an obvious overlap and a meeting of minds could occur.

If men were being asked to square the men and transwomen circle there would be an equally obvious overlap and a meeting of minds could occur.

But that is not what is happening. What TRAs, and you, are asking , is that women step aside, put aside all thoughts of equity, dignity and safety, in all aspects of our lives, to allow any number off men to do as they please.

And we have all seen what many of them please.

The starting point cannot be "What compromise can women offer men?"

For decades we have worked on the "three wise monkeys" principle. That left many women feeling, at best, discomfitted by the arrival of a transwoman a female single sex space. We shut up, we were nice, we set aside our own feelings and said and did nothing.

Now that acquescence is being used against us and is being utilised as a crow bar to open up the whole of womanhood.

Consider for a moment why you, a man, are not being asked to set aside all things male!

Transwomen are not women.

Human beings cannot change sex.

Men, as a class, are responsible for 95+% of all harm done to women.

I don't need a coherent argument. I don't need a coherent rebuttal.

I am saying NO!

Is there an example of anyone who holds a position you disagree with on women's rights in relation to trans issues that you believe has been put forward in a coherent, intelligent manner.

Well Professor Rachel McKinnon, very coherently put forward the argument that it doesn't matter if male inclusion. is unfair to women, it should be done anyway, in the name of diversity.

That's coherent, and presumably McKinnon's not unintelligent.

I have never, not once, ever seen an argument that does not rely on sexism or misogyny, though.

There are loads of coherent and intelligent male supremacists. Misogyny is not just the purview of the dimwitted and inarticulate.

Oh! And Yaniv. He said "Cos I want it"

Then again, he's not the best example.

The TV Dr Christian Jessen? Trans women have been accessing female safe spaces for years, to shelter from thr abusethey face. You predictably flail about randomly shouting ‘misogyny’ and ‘male entitlement’ yet its women trying to turn way women looking for help. But then feminism is nothing if not divisive all mispers are his.

He's an actual doctor, ffs! And he tinks transwomen are women and that feminism is divisive. Oh, how we all laughed cos, yeah! That's the point of it. Feminism = by women, for women!

And by the way ...

It is very telling that the trans researcher who presented their rather dodgy methodology research to convince the OIC who were after reasons to prioritise males (and uphold their decisions I expect about those athletes with DSDs as well) has come out and admitted that female safety and fairness may be compromised with any male inclusion. They could not even muster a coherent argument as to why Hubbard should be included.

This is the very voice of trans athletic research... admitting there is a paucity of evidence. But that males should be included where possible to be 'nice.

Go and google Joanne Harper.

@Datun

There are loads of coherent and intelligent male supremacists. Misogyny is not just the purview of the dimwitted and inarticulate.

Some of them use big words and nice manners and all sorts but the arguments themselves are still about as cohesive as my seven year old arguing that I haven't really escaped from his 'unescapable' trap because the floor is actually jelly, which is actually electric so would actually zap me and anyway he wasn't ready yet and can he have ice cream?

Adult males who self ID as women will invade and destroy women's sports.
Children who have been put on drugs and had experimental surgery will be so weak and unwell they will not be able to live a normal life, never mind even contemplate participating in sports.
It is all really horrible.

@334bu
So no men in female contact sports but ok in their prison cells?

I think there are various possibilities.
For example

1. Each prisoner has their own cell. This could be achieved by reducing prison populations (releasing non-violent drug offenders etc.) and/or building more prisoners.
2. Having separate prisons for trans women.

The prison service has said there are many men identifying as women in prison, in order to get into a female prison. Someone to access more victims, and some to have an easy ride.

How bad do you think things are in men's prisons that some would seek to have an easy ride? Does this in itself merit any changes in men's prisons?
Is it the case that some trans women could have a legitimate case for admittance to a women's prison? (I don't know if this is ever required - can all prisoners request being separated from other prisoners if they believe they are in danger?)

Do you think there are some issues in women's prisons (e.g. women on women violence) and men's prisons which are of equal importance? Do you think any data on violence is reliable, or is intimidation so pervasive that the extent of violence might be much greater than supposed?

@Runningupthecurtains
So presumably you think non contact sports are fair game? So safety kinda matters but screw fairness? What about something like cricket which is non contact but there is a greater danger to women from being hit by a ball bowled by a male bodied person? Fair game or not fair game?

I would tend to think team sports should be treated the same way. I just don't think it's as obvious.

As has already been pointed out on this thread I didn't frame this as part of the argument I merely asked why men weren't lining up to get into womens sport in the past.
Weren't there far fewer trans women in the past? Hasn't the proportion of people coming out as trans increased rapidly over several decades? (I would have thought it's grown at least as rapidly as women's sport, so I would assume that explains the number of trans women in sport increasing)

@OldCrone
So are you going to join us in campaigning against anti-science gender ideology being taught in schools?
I certainly agree with this and would be interested in details of any campaigns.

Why are you arguing against people here if you agree with them?
I doubt I'll agree with everyone on everything. I don't think I've reached a conclusion on all issues yet. I think it can be worthwhile to ask questions or challenge points on which I don't yet have a conclusion.

I did ask some questions which I think were interpreted as disagreement. I asked about the scale of these problems, because I think this important for policy advocacy. I think this may be especially important if you are constrained in the amount of time you have to advocate for your desired policies, or if the amount of resources is limited, or if you can only pass part of your platform, or compromise is required with those with opposing views - what to prioritise?

@Datun

There are loads of coherent and intelligent male supremacists. Misogyny is not just the purview of the dimwitted and inarticulate.

I've just read on the other thread the account of a TRA at the FiLia protest. They describe a lot of very positive thoughts and feelings and passion about equality and love and kindness and the need for spaces and respect -

just not for females who need those things away from male people regardless of how they identify.

They honestly cannot see their own issue in this. They cannot allow those feelings to slide to females, they cannot let themselves see it, because if they did - they could no longer justify what they want.

They are furious with females, protesting a conference over rape and femicide and painting those inside evil - because those females will not put them and other males first and stop talking about their own needs.

Bad mummy.

I've already said several times that I agree that male athletes should be banned from competing with women in contact sports. Yet people keep challenging me on whether I disagree with it. Yes, I still disagree. I haven't changed my mind in the last few hours.

So all other sports are fair game then? You care naught for fairness?

How about Golf? have a read what TW Alison Perkins says about that, and why they play in the men's stream.

Georgist You didn't answer my earlier question - why are you so determined to open up women and girls sports to men and boys, why?

Another one - why do women and girls have to justify keeping men and boys out of their sports?

As I said earlier during the discussions in Parliament around the GRA and EqA, the idea that women's sports would be put at risk was poo-pooed on the grounds that everyone would see the risks to safety and fairness and no-one would be so selfish or bloody minded enough to destroy women's sports by putting women in danger or stripping away the fairness of competition that women's sport provides for women.

How bad do you think things are in men's prisons that some would seek to have an easy ride? Does this in itself merit any changes in men's prisons?
Is it the case that some trans women could have a legitimate case for admittance to a women's prison? (I don't know if this is ever required - can all prisoners request being separated from other prisoners if they believe they are in danger?)

I'm not campaigning to sort out men's prisons. Does the whataboutery ever end?

Do you think there are some issues in women's prisons (e.g. women on women violence) and men's prisons which are of equal importance? Do you think any data on violence is reliable, or is intimidation so pervasive that the extent of violence might be much greater than supposed?

Men commit 98% of all sex crimes, and 90% of all violent crimes.

Can I suggest you go and look at keep prisons single sex? Instead of asking the women on here to educate you? The W oman who runs it is a mumsnetter. She has all the answers you seek.

What about something like cricket which is non contact but there is a greater danger to women from being hit by a ball bowled by a male bodied person? Fair game or not fair game?

Women’s cricket uses a lighter bat and ball and has shorter boundaries if I remember correctly (from at least one thread discussing women’s cricket’s inclusion of male and fairness). There is plenty of potential for a male with their extra strength to cause damage damage.

And it is indeed, unfair. As proven by Blythin who retained their position in the men’s team as well as the women’s and did very poorly in the men’s and set records in the women’s. Then took out women’s player of the year for the country for their efforts.

So presumably you think non contact sports are fair game? So safety kinda matters but screw fairness? What about something like cricket which is non contact but there is a greater danger to women from being hit by a ball bowled by a male bodied person? Fair game or not fair game?

I would tend to think team sports should be treated the same way. I just don't think it's as obvious.

I think you have misunderstood the meaning of contact sports. A contact sport is any sport in which there is contact between participants so lots of teams sports like football and rugby are contact sports. So I gather that you think it's only combat sports where men and women should be separated.

How bad do you think things are in men's prisons that some would seek to have an easy ride? Does this in itself merit any changes in men's prisons?
Is it the case that some trans women could have a legitimate case for admittance to a women's prison? (I don't know if this is ever required - can all prisoners request being separated from other prisoners if they believe they are in danger?)
Do you think there are some issues in women's prisons (e.g. women on women violence) and men's prisons which are of equal importance? Do you think any data on violence is reliable, or is intimidation so pervasive that the extent of violence might be much greater than supposed?

1. Be kind, think about the poor men! Mens prisons are horrible so just let them in wth the women or you are horrible bigots.

2.Ignore all the statistics women are just as violent as men. You're going to be attacked by women ,so what's the problem with letting male prisoners in. As to sexual assault didn't you know that women rape too. Statistics what statistics? 99% of sex offenders are male you say, prove it and when you do we'll ignore it

So are you going to join us in campaigning against anti-science gender ideology being taught in schools?
I certainly agree with this and would be interested in details of any campaigns.

There are some ideas here about how you can get involved.
safeschoolsallianceuk.net/get-involved/

If you have children in school, the obvious first thing to do is contact their school(s) and check if they are using any materials which promote genderism. You can also contact your LEA. You can do this even if you don't have children in school. You can write to your MP and if you are in Scotland, Wales or NI you can also write to your devolved government representatives.

There are some useful template letters at the link or you can just write your own.

@Georgist

If you're interested in schools campaigns, here are a couple of other useful links:

sex-matters.org/where-sex-matters/schools-and-safeguarding/

www.transgendertrend.com/

The DfE says:

We are aware that topics involving gender and biological sex can be complex and sensitive matters to navigate. You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear. Resources used in teaching about this topic must always be age-appropriate and evidence based. Materials which suggest that non-conformity to gender stereotypes should be seen as synonymous with having a different gender identity should not be used and you should not work with external agencies or organisations that produce such material. While teachers should not suggest to a child that their non-compliance with gender stereotypes means that either their personality or their body is wrong and in need of changing, teachers should always seek to treat individual students with sympathy and support,

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#planning-your-curriculum

@334bu

**How bad do you think things are in men's prisons that some would seek to have an easy ride? Does this in itself merit any changes in men's prisons? Is it the case that some trans women could have a legitimate case for admittance to a women's prison? (I don't know if this is ever required - can all prisoners request being separated from other prisoners if they believe they are in danger?)** *Do you think there are some issues in women's prisons (e.g. women on women violence) and men's prisons which are of equal importance? Do you think any data on violence is reliable, or is intimidation so pervasive that the extent of violence might be much greater than supposed?*

1. Be kind, think about the poor men! Mens prisons are horrible so just let them in wth the women or you are horrible bigots.

2.Ignore all the statistics women are just as violent as men. You're going to be attacked by women ,so what's the problem with letting male prisoners in. As to sexual assault didn't you know that women rape too. Statistics what statistics? 99% of sex offenders are male you say, prove it and when you do we'll ignore it

Quite. And I'm sure Georgist doesn't realise that they are just the latest in a tediously long and unutterably predictable line of people, mostly men, coming up with all these exact same reasons why we're wrong.

From DSDs, to women do it too, to what about the vulnerable men, to what if they do this, that, or the other?

Honestly. I wouldn't mind, but at least try and come up with something even vaguely novel.

@Runningupthecurtains

So presumably you think non contact sports are fair game? So safety kinda matters but screw fairness? What about something like cricket which is non contact but there is a greater danger to women from being hit by a ball bowled by a male bodied person? Fair game or not fair game?

I would tend to think team sports should be treated the same way. I just don't think it's as obvious.

I think you have misunderstood the meaning of contact sports. A contact sport is any sport in which there is contact between participants so lots of teams sports like football and rugby are contact sports. So I gather that you think it's only combat sports where men and women should be separated.

Just to be clear I did realise sports like football and rugby are contact sports. I stand by my position that a ban is obviously due in the existence of contact sports.

I wasn't sure why you thought I misunderstood, then I realised I missed out "other" - I meant to write "other team sports should be treated the same way."

If you were in a major decision-making position and were able to ban trans women from competing in team sports in the UK, what would you do - or suggest - if most or all other countries didn't follow? Would you refuse to compete in all international competitions as a protest? Would you compete, but only against all women teams?

I wouldn't put women at risk just because everyone else was (as my dear mother is so fond of saying "if everyone else jumps off a cliff would you follow them?"). But unlike like you I don't think it's OK for any men to take part in any women's sport ever. It's not just about safety it's about fairness and dignity and about being a single sex activity that women can enjoy as women. From women only sessions at a pool or gym with zero contact and zero competition through to top level international events women sport is for women.

If you were in a major decision-making position and were able to ban trans women from competing in team sports in the UK, what would you do - or suggest - if most or all other countries didn't follow? Would you refuse to compete in all international competitions as a protest? Would you compete, but only against all women teams?

Transwomen will not be banned from team sports as male athletes they can compete with the men.
Hopefully the IOC and other world sporting associations will follow all the science which proves that including males who identify as women in female only sport, can never be fair or safe.

@RedDogsBeg
So all other sports are fair game then? You care naught for fairness?

I don't care naught for fairness, but I don't think it's the most important either.
I'll elaborate, but I'm interested to know what you think fairness requires or implies.

You didn't answer my earlier question - why are you so determined to open up women and girls sports to men and boys, why?

I'm not determined to open them up. What makes you think this?

Another one - why do women and girls have to justify keeping men and boys out of their sports?

I think perhaps the biggest reason is that a significant minority of women are sympathetic or in favour.

e.g. in the UK
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

in the USA:
www.advocate.com/transgender/2021/5/26/new-poll-finds-opposition-trans-athletes-it-outlier
"34 percent said they should be able to compete under their gender identity"

Why do you think they think this?

@Datun
There are loads of coherent and intelligent male supremacists.

Are you sure?! Which individuals or arguments do you find intelligent?

Why do think "race realism" is so widely dismissed if there are any intelligent points in its favour?

There are women who are OK with trans women in sport. I think you'd be very hard pressed to find any non-white race realists. That seems odd if you think their arguments are more intelligent than arguments for trans rights.

Why are you bringing up " race realism" ?

Datun said *male *supremacist not white supremacist. Stick to the subject.