Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

And yes they are cheating and, like the people who jump over barriers to miss out half the London marathon, they know on some level that they are cheating. But they don't see women as real people and they really don't care. They can compartmentalise reality and tuck it away and carry on believing that they are a fast female athlete rather than a pudgy slow bloke. For some reason it makes them feel good about themselves. Like the barrier hopping cheat can forget they hopped the barrier, that fact is squirreled away in a dark corner of their mind, and carry on believing that they clocked an amazing time.

You said you don't have a sex, hmmmm, now how are we going to work out if that's true or not?

Well, for definitions they have:

The PHF recognizes that the below words have complex meanings, and for the purposes of this document we are using general but operational definitions:

Non-binary is a term used by some people who experience their gender identity and/or gender expression as falling between or outside the categories of man and woman.

So you don't even need it to be gender identity.

But I'm struggling to get my head around how one "experiences gender expression as falling between or outside the categories of man and woman".

Even before I get to understanding "between or outside".

Haven't heard Ross Tucker on this yet - except maybe the faint sound of distant headbanging.

Ok, georgist, let’s take a step back because I don’t think I’m alone in being baffled by your posts, which don’t really hang together coherently as far as I can make out.

Rather than picking at a few words from people’s posts to argue against, could you maybe say in a couple of sentences what your actual position is here, and what you yourself would do to win hearts and minds on this topic?

As this debate has got a bit silly and unproductive.

FFS! Imagine a young teenager.... young people are looking for acceptance....Imagine if it was your son...

You do realise that being born with a vagina doesn't make a female everyone's mum?

On what forum are you exhorting male athletes to please think of the young female humans looking for acceptance in the world of sports and a fair chance and to overcome their sex based challenges, and to extend them this parental compassion?

@Sophoclesthefox

Ok, georgist, let’s take a step back because I don’t think I’m alone in being baffled by your posts, which don’t really hang together coherently as far as I can make out.

Rather than picking at a few words from people’s posts to argue against, could you maybe say in a couple of sentences what your actual position is here, and what you yourself would do to win hearts and minds on this topic?

As this debate has got a bit silly and unproductive.

She's trying to help

By, like, being spectacularly unhelpful.

I have a 6 year old who's like that.

I read what you wrote Georgist and no, it doesn't leap out as being about young teenagers.

Agree the propaganda needs tearing down and that fact and reality needs presenting and that needs to happen in schools as well as on the internet.

What can I say, I’m one of life’s optimists, rainbow

@Artichokeleaves

FFS! Imagine a young teenager.... young people are looking for acceptance....Imagine if it was your son...

You do realise that being born with a vagina doesn't make a female everyone's mum?

On what forum are you exhorting male athletes to please think of the young female humans looking for acceptance in the world of sports and a fair chance and to overcome their sex based challenges, and to extend them this parental compassion?

Yes, I do realise that. That's why I asked you to imagine.

There's quite a lot threads discussing this on letsrun.com (I think with the prevailing opinion being against trans).

That's why I asked you to imagine.

Please be clear.... what are the minds on this thread imagining? And why exactly?

@Artichokeleaves

FFS! Imagine a young teenager.... young people are looking for acceptance....Imagine if it was your son...

You do realise that being born with a vagina doesn't make a female everyone's mum?

On what forum are you exhorting male athletes to please think of the young female humans looking for acceptance in the world of sports and a fair chance and to overcome their sex based challenges, and to extend them this parental compassion?

Extraordinary, isn't it? We have to budge up, be kind to all these men who want to take over not just our spaces, but our daughters' too.

We must centre the male children! Bugger the female children who are going to get beaten by them.

georgist I don't think you have any idea how sexist you are. Are you thinking of the women, at all? The girls, even a bit?

I love my son more than life itself but, if he started claiming the right to use women's or girls' services and spaces, I would have no qualms at all at letting him see how angry I was.

Playing devil's advocate can be an important part of strengthening arguments.

Well, shut the door and call me Martha!

You want to play Devil's Advocate over basic biology?

you find gametes etc an amusing tipic over which to quibble and feel that women need to have a better arguement than "Hey hun! There are actually only 2 sexes!"

How do you feel about the earth being flat?

Sun circling the Earth?

Water being wet?

Do you think science needs a stringer argument than, well, erm, science

That an opinion that is well thought out, expressed in nice long words, that sounds impressive is better than "Well, we measured it, took samples and over a number of centuries ascertainf that: the earth is an oblate spehroid; the earth revolves around the sun; the ow viscoity of eater meks if 'feel' wet to the touch. Oh, and by the way, human beings come in 2 sexes!"

TLDR?

Simple hypothesis: you think you are being clever
Null hypothesis: What you think changes nothing
Logical hypothesis: You think you have a point to make
Statistical hypothesis: Most posters here will neither think you are clever nor think you have a point to make (over and above "Hey, I am a man with an idea")

Application of hypotheses: Yeah, whatever!

@RedDogsBeg

I read what you wrote Georgist and no, it doesn't leap out as being about young teenagers.

Agree the propaganda needs tearing down and that fact and reality needs presenting and that needs to happen in schools as well as on the internet.

Sorry, I post something then about 5-10 people have replied, I posted again and then people post again saying I haven't replied to one of their points.

I don't have time to reply to everyone. Some of my responses are rushed as a result (e.g. here I just said someone thinks they're trans, reads online, hasn't heard opposing arguments, thinking in my mind that conjures an image of a young person).

Oh sweetie! That's how forums work. We don't have to wait for you to catch up!!

Playing devil's advocate can be an important part of strengthening arguments.

And for showing up their weaknesses.
Cheers mate, thanks, but we've been there, done that.

I do like the absolute assumption that we are all clueless though. Cheered me up on a cold, wet day

@HoardingSamphireSaurus
You want to play Devil's Advocate over basic biology?

No, and I don't think I have disputed anything about biology.

Consider the weight classes in boxing. Are these necessitated by biology? Do we actually need weight classes in sports like rugby and American football as well? (I think biology is likely to be useful in considering these issues, but it can't provide answers alone)

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Oh sweetie! That's how forums work. We don't have to wait for you to catch up!!

I'm OK with it! Some others seem not to be.

[quote Georgist]@HoardingSamphireSaurus
You want to play Devil's Advocate over basic biology?

No, and I don't think I have disputed anything about biology.

Consider the weight classes in boxing. Are these necessitated by biology? Do we actually need weight classes in sports like rugby and American football as well? (I think biology is likely to be useful in considering these issues, but it can't provide answers alone)[/quote]
Necessitated by physics.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

I do like the absolute assumption that we are all clueless though. Cheered me up on a cold, wet day

I like your assumption that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid or ill-intentioned or both.

Playing devil's advocate can be an important part of strengthening arguments.

I don't think your playing devil's advocate about the rape of women prisoners by male prisoners, because men get raped in prison too, needs any strengthening.
Take your mind games elsewhere.

Consider the weight classes in boxing. Are these necessitated by biology? Do we actually need weight classes in sports like rugby and American football as well? (I think biology is likely to be useful in considering these issues, but it can't provide answers alone)

Seriously.

This has been discussed time and time again.

I suggest though you go and read Ross Tucker or Dr Emma Hilton on twitter.

You are not presenting anything that we have not discussed before. And you really have not answered why you believe that males cannot compete or play with other males.

Do we need separate classes for people who like rambling on and not ever making a constructive point?

[quote Georgist]@HoardingSamphireSaurus
You want to play Devil's Advocate over basic biology?

No, and I don't think I have disputed anything about biology.

Consider the weight classes in boxing. Are these necessitated by biology? Do we actually need weight classes in sports like rugby and American football as well? (I think biology is likely to be useful in considering these issues, but it can't provide answers alone)[/quote]
Really?

You don't equate a discussion around the possibility of human beings being able to change sex with biology?

Or you think that your highbrow quibbling sorry, devils advocating is somehow on a higher plain and doesn't have to be connected to the real world.

And I'll happily talk boxing with you. From experience. I am not the only poster here who has boxed, muy thai etc included.

In fact I;'ll save you some embarrassment there, chap! I am a retired lecturer in Sport Science. Decades worth of research and lecturing under my belt.

Specifically, where would you like to start?

Physiology?
Biomechanics?
Sociology?
Psychology?
Keep it MultiDisciplinarian?

Name your weapon of choice...

I like your assumption that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid or ill-intentioned or both.

I believe this is another repeated question.

What exactly are you disagreeing on with posters on this thread?