Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

Georgist, if you want to complain about the way women are arguing wrong, at least have the decency to cite some real examples rather than using examples you made up in your head.

Or do you only feel comfortable interacting with imaginary women?

@WomaninBoots

I was reading elsewhere about runners who cheat at races. For no prize money often. Just simply to record a faster time or a higher placing. There are so many examples. People cutting corners, getting lifts, switching with their twin brother... it is far from beyond the pale to imagine that a similar driving force could be at play for males to want to compete in the women's category. I believe there are even examples of it. It is a true and valid consideration that some men might do this.

Again. Reality. She's a fucking bitch that one.

www.runnersworld.com/news/a20808313/how-common-is-cheating-at-marathons/

"Industry insiders say a few people every year will try to cut a course or swap bibs."

I think that's different though, because they cheat in the hope of getting away with it.

By far the more common form of cheating is drug-taking. But I think the reasoning is that they think - often correctly - that some of their opponents are taking drugs, so they need to cheat as well, to level the playing field.

Trans cheating is out in the open and you have to live with a separate identity for the rest of your life. I'm not surprised those who have the opportunity haven't taken it.

I'm paraphrasing you Georgist But if TW want to change the entire concept of female sports then the onus is on TW to prove unequivocally that there will be absolutely NO detriment to females.

The fact that they cannot prove this is why they don't even try and come out with either ridiculous obfuscation, emotional blackmail or straightforward vitriolic abuse.

@Helleofabore

Imagine if it was your son. Would you just say: "You can fuck right off with your misogynistic bullshit about wanting to use any female only spaces." Or would you explain the errors in their reasoning?

Rather interesting that you would think any parent's first approach would be to say to their child "You can fuck right off with your misogynistic bullshit about wanting to use any female only spaces."

I thought you'd realise that was the point. I would expect that you wouldn't say that to your child.

People are arguing the TW/TG in sport are necessarily malevolent. But then when I ask if you put it like that to a confused youngster, you feign surprise.

@Runningupthecurtains

Imagine being a woman in sport, you continued training through female pubity and all that entailed, you put up with the crappy facilities and the restricted opportunities for completion because fewer girls took part in your sport than men. You friendship circle fades away because you are always too busy. The boys at school call you a lesbian or laugh at your unladylike muscles. You are good, you juggle training with normal school while boys of the same ability level were whisked off into well funded training programs. You leave school and continue to juggle training now with a job, you fund your own travel, your own kit, your own coaching while your male contemporaries get that all provided. You are playing for the best female team in the country and when you are in you late 20's that team finally goes professional. You are still earning a fraction of what the men earn but at least the sport is now your job. You would like to have children, the clock is ticking but you know that it will pretty much signal the end of your career so every year you decide to hold off on TTC because hopefully you'll still have time once your sporting days are over. Now imagine that you lose you place it the team to a man. A man that hasn't had to choose between sport and children, that didn't have to hold down a job and train, that had the backing and the opportunities to make it as a pro but wasn't quite good enough (or worse had the talent but slacked off training and drank a bit too much and ate junk). The advantages for men in sport go way beyond testosterone, way beyond the physical advantage of a male body. No degree of thinking you are a woman can put a man on the same level as a woman because they have very different experiences from the very start of their sporting journey.

This is an amazing post.

People! Can we be nice to Georgist?! Georgist is a lovely GC female who is only here arguing black is white and that the moon is made of cheese to help us hone our 'white is white and the moon is a satellite made out of sciency stuff' arguments. We should be lovely and kind to Georgist. And grateful for the help.

Georgist. For all that you do.

@RedDogsBeg

I'm paraphrasing you Georgist But if TW want to change the entire concept of female sports then the onus is on TW to prove unequivocally that there will be absolutely NO detriment to females.

The fact that they cannot prove this is why they don't even try and come out with either ridiculous obfuscation, emotional blackmail or straightforward vitriolic abuse.

I think you hold the reasonable position that what should happen is settled. I'm suggesting some reasons why I think some of the rhetorical strategy to trans lobby's emotional blackmail may not be working.

@RainbowCrossing

People! Can we be nice to Georgist?! Georgist is a lovely GC female who is only here arguing black is white and that the moon is made of cheese to help us hone our 'white is white and the moon is a satellite made out of sciency stuff' arguments. We should be lovely and kind to Georgist. And grateful for the help.

Georgist. For all that you do.

Rainbow

I was going to offer a fish feast.

If you collude with your son that he's really a girl, and needs to be able to play in female sports, then yes, you are every bit as bad as the people who are making these decisions in positions of authority. Of course.

Anyone who plays sport does not need the very basic dynamics of how sport works explained to them.

They just don't.

Or is this, yet again, one of those well what if there was a male, a very vulnerable person, who truly thought they were the opposite sex, and played sport, and didn't understand why it was a problem, and had never given any thought to the girls they would be beating, what about them? Would it be acceptable then?

It reminds me of the poster who asked whether or not toilets that had normal height doors, but a mesh across the top so people couldn't look over, and a mesh from the bottom of the door to the floor, and little bowls of Tampax in each one, and they were checked daily for cameras, would it be okay then if men were to use them?

It's quite extraordinary how people have never heard the word no.

The answer is no.

@Georgist

So you are now arguing that TW have no cognitive ability of their own and are purely driven and influenced by propaganda?

FFS! Imagine a young teenager, thinks they are trans, starts looking online, finds a lot of trans propaganda. Especially as young people are looking for acceptance, they are more likely to accept the claims uncritically.

Imagine if it was your son. Would you just say: "You can fuck right off with your misogynistic bullshit about wanting to use any female only spaces." Or would you explain the errors in their reasoning?

Apologies for the confusion if I should have written TG instead of TW, though I did think from the context (someone with no exposure to these arguments) you'd realise I meant someone very young.

How the hell I am supposed to get from your posts that you are talking about young teenagers?

Furthermore, young teenagers are in school are they not? Where sports after a certain age are segregated on the basis of sex, are you implying that they lack the intellectual capacity to notice this? Or the basic intelligence to work out the reasons why?

I do agree with you that the trans propaganda on the internet aimed at children and young teenagers is abhorrent and should be curtailed, in my mind it is no different to pro-ana propaganda, it is brainwashing and targeting the vulnerable.

If it was my son I would point out the misogynist bullshit of males demanding access to female only spaces and dictating what females must accept.

Trans cheating is out in the open and you have to live with a separate identity for the rest of your life. I'm not surprised those who have the opportunity haven't taken it.

Do you though? When there's no gatekeeping? When transition is effected by stating "I am a women"? When people are allowed to identify as a woman for one sport and a man for another in theory in Canada at least? When "living as a woman" means changing a few documents? When there is no stigma attached and only praise for being stunning and brave?

I think you're being hopelessly naive if you thing noone would game this situation.

If it was my son I would point out the misogynist bullshit of males demanding access to female only spaces and dictating what females must accept.

I would also point out that misogyny comes in many, many forms.

Trans cheating is out in the open and you have to live with a separate identity for the rest of your life. I'm not surprised those who have the opportunity haven't taken it.

No you don't. Current IOC requirements, I believe, is that you reduce your testosterone for a year? I can't remember what the period is after, I believe it's four years for the Olympics? But then you can just go straight back to identifying as a man.

Plus, there is no criteria about what a woman looks like. None.

The athlete would have to have declared that their gender identity is female, with the declaration unable to be changed for a minimum of four years.

A declaration.

Now I'm going to watch this argument switch to, okay what if they had to fulfil more criteria, then would it be okay??

Sophoclesthefox

This is an absolute bait and switch.

Yep.

No you don't. Current IOC requirements, I believe, is that you reduce your testosterone for a year? I can't remember what the period is after, I believe it's four years for the Olympics? But then you can just go straight back to identifying as a man.

Have you seen the new PHF (formerly NWHL) women's ice hockey rules?

All a man has to do to compete is say he's identified as non-binary for two years. No testosterone requirement.

But it's okay, as "The PHF does not permit competition based on a fraudulent assertion of identity under any circumstances."

They don't explain how you detect a fraudulent assertion of being non-binary.

If you go along to a standard amateur running race you could very easily run as a woman, with no concessions at all towards being one and if the organiser challenged you you could accuse them of transphobia. And take your place as 4th FV40. To the detriment of all the women who finished the race after you. The usual comeuppance for such people (men running on a women's number) is completely gone. They are unchallengable. Amateur running events can hardly check testosterone levels etc.

@NecessaryScene

No you don't. Current IOC requirements, I believe, is that you reduce your testosterone for a year? I can't remember what the period is after, I believe it's four years for the Olympics? But then you can just go straight back to identifying as a man.

Have you seen the new PHF (formerly NWHL) women's ice hockey rules?

All a man has to do to compete is say he's identified as non-binary for two years. No testosterone requirement.

But it's okay, as "The PHF does not permit competition based on a fraudulent assertion of identity under any circumstances."

They don't explain how you detect a fraudulent assertion of being non-binary.

I did see that, yes.

Total jibber jabber that will result in a bloodbath.

And if people don't think that men will thoroughly enjoy watching women getting the crap beaten out of them by men, they are wrong.

They don't explain how you detect a fraudulent assertion of being non-binary.

Madness.

You said you don't have a sex, hmmmm, now how are we going to work out if that's true or not?

Georgist, it is so interesting that you would ask what I would say to my son. DS is 9 and they have just had the transgender talk in school. He was left with the impression that boys could magically turn into girls and girls could magically turn into boys.

This actually worried my son as he likes to be a boy and he somehow feared that doing things that was stereotypically female might turn him into a girl and that he possibly would lose his penis in the process.

We had a good chat where I explained that biological reality was separate from feelings. I explained that from conception, every single cell in his body had XY and that this would always be the case. In order to look like a girl, a boy would be able to take hormones (might help to grow small breasts) but that the penis would remain firmly in place unless you asked a doctor to cut it off. Given his age, I decided against talking about “neo vaginas” and the daily dilation required.

I furthermore explained that this biological reality was different from any feelings and “identity” they had discussed in school and that in my opinion, a lot of identity is what I consider personality.

DS understood all this really well although I must confess that he was slightly uncomfortable about the thought of anyone wanting to have their penis chopped off.

So to answer your question, I would talk to my child and explain the biological reality, how this differed from gender identity (whatever this is) and that this was the unfortunate reason why trans girls cannot participate in girls sports.

I know people who are running as females in amateur running who really shouldn't be. This is not theoretical. People don't care because people think middle-aged women runners don't or shouldn't care about their placing at amateur events. But they fucking do care and they have every right to care and be pissed off.

@WomaninBoots

Trans cheating is out in the open and you have to live with a separate identity for the rest of your life. I'm not surprised those who have the opportunity haven't taken it.

Do you though? When there's no gatekeeping? When transition is effected by stating "I am a women"? When people are allowed to identify as a woman for one sport and a man for another in theory in Canada at least? When "living as a woman" means changing a few documents? When there is no stigma attached and only praise for being stunning and brave?

I think you're being hopelessly naive if you thing noone would game this situation.

gript.ie/male-trinity-student-comes-2nd-in-womens-race/

I think many of us remember this event.

I'm suggesting some reasons why I think some of the rhetorical strategy to trans lobby's emotional blackmail may not be working.

It ain't working on the majority of the general public, sooner or later that message will permeate into the brains of the supine, craven people in authority.

The strategy of reality is what's working.

And of course the fact that we can now talk about reality, without being intimidated into silence.

Things like the Stonewall podcasts is just the beginning.

@RedDogsBeg
How the hell I am supposed to get from your posts that you are talking about young teenagers?

I wrote: "Now imagine you are a TW and you have been immersed in propaganda which says you should be able to compete in women's sport before being confronted with any arguments as to why you shouldn't be allowed to compete."

I think that is likely to be descriptive of a child/teenager thinking they are trans and searching online and finding an echo chamber. I think it's unlikely to be descriptive of an adult.

Furthermore, young teenagers are in school are they not? Where sports after a certain age are segregated on the basis of sex, are you implying that they lack the intellectual capacity to notice this? Or the basic intelligence to work out the reasons why?

But once people are radicalised/brainwashed to believe identity trumps biology, why would existing segregation by biology matter to them? Similarly you could ask why people continue to believe various conspiracies despite evidence.

I think it might take a lot more intellectual capacity to break free from the propaganda if you've been brainwashed compared to if you were presented the propaganda and refutations side by side.