Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

Purgatory that gif was so very very on target.

The extraordinary position in this discussion is the idea that males should be in female sport.

No, it's even more extraordinary than that - it's the idea that some males should be in there, while others are excluded.

They're insisting on discrimination on the basis of gender identity against men (who don't call themselves transwomen or nonbinary). But why should men be excluded purely on the basis of their gender identity? Gender identity doesn't affect sporting performance.

Now imagine you are a TW and you have been immersed in propaganda which says you should be able to compete in women's sport before being confronted with any arguments as to why you shouldn't be allowed to compete.

So you are now arguing that TW have no cognitive ability of their own and are purely driven and influenced by propaganda? That those chanting TWAW have made TW believe that they are actually women despite the obvious scientific and biological fact that they are not, or the more succinct - if they are women and always have been women then what are they transitioning from and why do they need to?

Furthermore, it is only recently under the direction of Stonewall and their ilk that the push for TW to compete in women's sport has become an issue, during the debates in the HoL around the GRA and the Equality Act it was made clear at that time that including TW in female sports was envisaged as something that would never happen due to it being so obviously unsafe and unfair.

Point to the post where I stated argument (1).

Don't you think the first position is less likely to be persuasive? (People who aren't as informed - whether women, men, cis, trans - are likely to focus on the claim that TWs are literally motivated by malevolent intentions towards women. Most TWs will think to themselves "Well I know that that doesn't describe me. These women are making false, hateful claims about me" and presumably that is also the response of many woke/SJWs/allies. As far as I can see, the first position adds nothing to the argument and only helps to frame the debate in the favour of the trans lobby, by making their opponents seem hateful.

Frankly at this point in time I couldn't give a flying fuck if people think I am hateful. Imo it is hateful to demand inclusion into a sporting category that you are not entitled to be in by virtue of your sex, it is hateful to demand inclusion knowing full well that by doing so you are robbing another women of their place, it is hateful to demand inclusion knowing full well that by doing so you are impinging on the safety, fairness and dignity of women, all of these things are not only hateful they are also malevolent. Don't tell me TW/TRAs don't know exactly what they are doing by demanding inclusion, they do, they don't care and equally I care not if they are upset and hurt when they hear the word NO.

I am having a sense of humour failure at the idea that women should present "persuasive" arguments to keep males out of women's sports to be honest._
Me too and I have totally lost the plot at the implication that deliberately putting male prisoners into female prisons, where they then go onto rape female prisoners, is not a deliberate design to rape , or at the very least a deliberate decision to ignore the probability of female prisoners being raped , just because males also rape in male prisons. How fucking dare you!!!!

But if you want to achieve change you have to persuade a lot of people that this issue is more seriously than they currently think it is.

If you want to achieve change you actually have to figure out what point you're trying to make and make it clearly. Otherwise everyone will just think you're enjoying the sound of your own voice.

Actually, in the real world, it takes very very little to convince people that male bodies don’t belong in women’s sports.

A picture of Laurel Hubbard is usually all that’s required.

It is a tiny, tiny minority of people who will straight faced tell you that it’s not an issue.

The issue is that the governing bodies have been persuaded otherwise, and they are the ones who need to walk it back. Joe Public knows already.

Georgist "It's possible, maybe, perhaps though that it might be that if you stare at a lamp, then blink, then screw up your eyes, then look at the sky that is might look green"

Women "The sky is blue"

Fiona Bruce (to women) "There are people that will vehemently disagree with you"

Women 🙄

Georgist "Ahh but someone might really think the sky is green".

There may be arguments about how these offset, but they different effects. So there could be instances where it is unfair both ways. For example in combat sports a female body is vulnerable, because of bone structure etc., so that is unfair on her. But she may be stronger due to higher testosterone, which is unfair against her opponent.

I repeat

You still have not addressed your point ’I think it's fair enough to say that this TW can't compete in either male or female contact sports ‘.

You seem to think you have answered it, but this is a nonsense answer.

Now imagine you are a TW and you have been immersed in propaganda which says you should be able to compete in women's sport before being confronted with any arguments as to why you shouldn't be allowed to compete.

The answer here is again, so what?

The issue is that the governing bodies have been persuaded otherwise, and they are the ones who need to walk it back. Joe Public knows already.

Indeed. My husband is an avid watcher of a number of women's sports, put TW in there and he will switch off as it's unfair. All the work that has gone on to have women's sports viewed as equal to and as worthy of watching and participating in as men's sport will be destroyed by the inclusion of TW and that is malevolent.

I would get deleted and probably banned if I posted on here his comments about Laurel Hubbard.

This is an absolute bait and switch.

Very common. It's like the 'if you insist on keeping TW out of female spaces then you'll have to have TM who look like men and real men will come in because you won't know the difference and then you'll be sorry'.

Bottom line: male people will do what they want and you mere females can accept us removing your right to a female only space nicely or nastily.

Female rights are not something in the gift of men if they're feeling generous. Honestly. And the whole 'sex isn't binary' thing starts to fall apart when it's very clear that this is entirely rooted in 'heads male people win and tails female people lose' thinking, by people who have no trouble at all in knowing exactly who the winners and losers are.

Women have said it nicely. They've said it politely. They've reasoned, they've asked, and oh look how much they've been listened to and their feelings about their words, definitions, spaces and inclusion have been respected? Not at all.

So now they're saying it a lot more bluntly. And immediately get scolded because no one listens to women being 'strident' or 'shrill' or 'unkind'.

We're still on 'heads people with penises believe they should win, tails people penises believe that people without penises lose'. Even down to attempting to direct tone in which rights under threat may be defended.

@Helleofabore

Now imagine you are a TW and you have been immersed in propaganda which says you should be able to compete in women's sport before being confronted with any arguments as to why you shouldn't be allowed to compete.

The answer here is again, so what?

Why are the feelings of the male person here considered so much sadder and more urgent than the feelings of the female people who will be displaced and excluded by them?

Now imagine you are a TW and you have been immersed in propaganda which says you should be able to compete in women's sport before being confronted with any arguments as to why you shouldn't be allowed to compete.

^The answer here is again, so what?^

Exactly, as Germaine Greer would say" I don't care!"

If you are content with simply knowing that your arguments are correct, then neither rhetoric nor political strategy matter.

But if you want to achieve change you have to persuade a lot of people that this issue is more seriously than they currently think it is.

If it wasn't offensive enough to hand wave women being raped by males in prison, I think you are now embarrassing yourself further.

You seem to think that women are not currently making gains against these changes. A rather ignorant assertion.

You also seem to have a very skewed perception of people's acceptance of this. I have seen it first hand at a protest about Hubbard's inclusion when a very large protest march passed the group protesting Hubbard. There were hundreds and hundreds in that crowd and overwhelmingly, they supported the protest agains Hubbard's inclusion. Very vocally. Taking up the chants.

There were at least two MN polls run at the time too (most likely deleted or moved so the poll is deleted) and both times a minuscule % (both may have been 2%) of MNers supported Hubbard's inclusion. Both polls iirc had 1800+ votes.

It is very clear with each post that you have little actual relevant experience or information.

But, do crack on. It keeps this thread trending and up the top of the posts so that more and more people are visiting it and reading along.

Women are saying no to transwomen in women's sports. There is no further discussion required.

I was reading elsewhere about runners who cheat at races. For no prize money often. Just simply to record a faster time or a higher placing. There are so many examples. People cutting corners, getting lifts, switching with their twin brother... it is far from beyond the pale to imagine that a similar driving force could be at play for males to want to compete in the women's category. I believe there are even examples of it. It is a true and valid consideration that some men might do this.

Again. Reality. She's a fucking bitch that one.

So you are now arguing that TW have no cognitive ability of their own and are purely driven and influenced by propaganda?

FFS! Imagine a young teenager, thinks they are trans, starts looking online, finds a lot of trans propaganda. Especially as young people are looking for acceptance, they are more likely to accept the claims uncritically.

Imagine if it was your son. Would you just say: "You can fuck right off with your misogynistic bullshit about wanting to use any female only spaces." Or would you explain the errors in their reasoning?

Apologies for the confusion if I should have written TG instead of TW, though I did think from the context (someone with no exposure to these arguments) you'd realise I meant someone very young.

Funny how there isn't a massive furore about there needing to be a right for Trans Men to participate in Men's Sport.

I wonder why?

I'm not sure I know what point you're trying to make, Georgie lad.

It isn't some misguided teenager that gets to make decisions about which sports category he gets to compete in. It is a bunch of adults who should have the emotion maturity to accept reality that makes those decisions.

emotional*

If you are content with simply knowing that your arguments are correct, then neither rhetoric nor political strategy matter.

But if you want to achieve change you have to persuade a lot of people that this issue is more seriously than they currently think it is.

Hey, yous! You are all simply talking into the void and not doing anything to protect girls and women's sports. None of yous on MN know anything, and are simply talking in the echo chamber.

And no other of you women are doing anything either.... There are no women doing world class research into the matter, there are no women submitting well documented submissions to any government or sports federations in the world, there are no women speaking with their 'correct arguments' on international media, or debating.

There are simply no women, and you women (and men) on MN particularly, doing anything except feeling good about knowing our arguments are correct. Certainly not persuading a lot of people... you know ... like the actual decision makers....

* This is sarcasm by the way. In case anyone thinks any differently.

Georgist, I'd be unlikely to tell a teenager to fuck off, but I'd certainly describe male entitlement as misogynistic bullshit. Conversations about male privilege, female-only spaces, consent and boundaries are precisely the discussions parents should be having with teenagers.

Back to QT, it's always so revealing when they have guests on from the kind of jobs where vague bullshit gets you professionally exposed very quickly. Compared to the default waffle of most politicians.

The UK gave the world Newton, Darwin, Franklin etc but we've only had one PM with a science degree (Thatcher).

Imagine if it was your son. Would you just say: "You can fuck right off with your misogynistic bullshit about wanting to use any female only spaces." Or would you explain the errors in their reasoning?

Rather interesting that you would think any parent's first approach would be to say to their child "You can fuck right off with your misogynistic bullshit about wanting to use any female only spaces."

@Georgist

So you are now arguing that TW have no cognitive ability of their own and are purely driven and influenced by propaganda?

FFS! Imagine a young teenager, thinks they are trans, starts looking online, finds a lot of trans propaganda. Especially as young people are looking for acceptance, they are more likely to accept the claims uncritically.

Imagine if it was your son. Would you just say: "You can fuck right off with your misogynistic bullshit about wanting to use any female only spaces." Or would you explain the errors in their reasoning?

Apologies for the confusion if I should have written TG instead of TW, though I did think from the context (someone with no exposure to these arguments) you'd realise I meant someone very young.

And again, the answer is, so what?

Even if a male is fully entrenched in believing they have every right on earth to compete against females in female sports, to enter female single sex spaces, and to be housed in female prisons, are women supposed to allow them access? Because they believe in an alternate reality?

Go and discuss this with those who are putting these males in such a vulnerable position.

Feminists are not the fixers of all people's issues. Feminists are about centring the needs and the rights of females. All females, however they identify.