Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

'Oh. I am still looking forward to seeing the evidence that refutes the studies that conclude that on average males who transition lose very little of their advantage. And the fact that there is also evidence that mediocre males who transition can, with training, reverse the decrease.'

No interest in anything that doesn't give the right answer.

And that doesn't matter.
Loads of sports, clubs, etc were changed to accept males into female sports in a widespread way. Changing something in place for years and years due to obvious everyday knowledge and common sense. BEFORE studies with proof, consulting women etc.

And now we fight just to get back what we had up until a few mins ago.

The roles the eg IOC came up with were at a glance unfair and not based in any science at all. Yet in they went.

Caster Semenya refused to have Caster's male gonad(s) (not sure how many) removed to allow Caster's testosterone to drop to acceptable levels and was not allowed to compete in the latest Olympics. Not that Caster "didn't qualify" on speed.

CeCe Telfer was apparently advised by their coach that transitioning would help CeCe's aspiring athletic career, since CeCe was only ranking two hundred and something in the male category.

Serena Williams could barely take a point off the male player ranked around 200th www.essentiallysports.com/when-serena-williams-and-venus-williams-lost-to-a-male-tennis-player-at-australian-open-wta-tennis-news/ - lost to him 6-1 in a non-comp set.

Oscar Pistorius competed in the 2012 Olympics, not the Paralympics.

In 2019, Hubbard won the weightlifting at the Pacific Games in Samoa - the Samoan president was pretty outspoken about it but they are effectively only a "small" games in world terms, so it wasn't of much interest to the rest of the world, and China et al smashed Hubbard in the Tokyo Olympics.

Sharron Davies has been rather outspoken about the demoralising effect of racing against doped East Germans through her career.

People DO speak up but are shut down - Martina Navratilova was removed from Athlete Ally (an LGBT group) as an ambassador after her comments about TW, for example.

My DH (mid 40s) runs in 10km and half marathons etc approx 1 or 2 times a year to support the charity affiliated with his work.

He isn’t an avid runner, does it out of duty, but gets within the top 20% fastest in men’s each time.
When he looks at the overall % including women he’s never been out of the top 10%.

No doubt he, an apathetic, amateur by his own admission , would be beating younger women who train seriously day in day out.

There will be many men like him. Does anyone really think a bit of oestrogen would impact his results so much? I compared an xray of his lungs to mine, they were bloody massive! No escaping his biology.

I wonder, does it make a difference if it’s actually something more like:
“It means that if I’m born a man but I feel like a woman and people who meet me pretend to think I am a woman even though they can clearly see Im not, just for the sake of politeness or kindness

And what about if those people are forced to pretend, not out of kindness, but under threat of losing their job or their liberty or their children? Do that still make the recipient a woman?

Hmm, failed quote!

Why do you think DSD athletes were required to reduce their testosterone levels,

Just coming back to this.

And again I repeat loudly that I did not say that an elite athlete already at the top of their performance could lower testosterone and change their training to better than their world record performance!

If you also read any of the studies posted and mentioned, or even applied any critical thought. You also would know that male puberty confers many, many other advantages that lowered testosterone can NEVER change.

Things like
-larger hearts and lungs to get higher oxygenated blood around the body faster.
-different musculature such as twitch muscles.
-skeletal differences that include pelvic alignment (better for running, leverage differences…. Even a harder skull to withstand impact from fists and other contact
-reaction times from seeing something to reacting to it.

There are many. And there is plenty of information out there if you cared to read it about the fact that these advantages cannot be mitigated at the moment, and may never been able to be mitigated, to allow fair competition.

Even in archery and shooting, males have advantages.

So, maybe you could also answer the question I asked about why you say transitioned males can no longer compete with males?

To be clear, I refer to this assertion here.

I think it's fair enough to say that this TW can't compete in either male or female contact sports ‘,

What exactly is it that you feel prevents a male competing with other males after they have transitioned?

Just watching this now. That Drama student sounded so stupid with the 'science' comment does she not understand who Sir Winston is? Winston's face was pure disappear at that point.
The Labour MP is shockingly poor with her mantra of trans women are women.

The Labour MP is shockingly poor with her mantra of trans women are women

When it comes to thought terminating clichés, I always think of West Wing :

Helleofabore

Thanks for all your patience and really informative posts. I came to the conclusion at some point yesterday, that you can present all this information from genuine sources, yet some people are not willing to accept it.
Your last point about male transitioners regaining their strength, reminded me about the cyclist McKinnon a couple of years ago, boasting about lifting heavier deadlifts than they had ever done.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3573615-Rachel-McKinnon-weightlifting-results-compared-to-male-and-female-powerlifters

What exactly is it that you feel prevents a male competing with other males after they have transitioned?

And it's worth noting that elite women DO compete against males quite routinely in many sports - it's a great way to easily get strong competition. One of the few advantages of being a top-level female athlete - it's very easy to find someone to stretch you by simply testing yourself against males.

An international female athlete can get excellent training in just local male competition (or non-competition).

So what is it about transwomen that makes them uniquely unable to compete against men, unlike women?

LadyNotGivingaF

"And you might well agree with Dr Winston and he is of course scientifically correct but whether we like it or not people do, have and will continue to change their sex"

I have to disagree with this, nobody has ever changed sex, it is scientifically impossible.
If people believe in the social construct of gender, then they can dress, behave, attempt to look like their gender stereotype of the opposite gender they consider they were born with. If they are happy with that and they are not impacting negatively on other people's lives, then crack on, I wish them luck.
They haven't however, changed sex.

@jellybe

Just watching this now. That Drama student sounded so stupid with the 'science' comment does she not understand who Sir Winston is? Winston's face was pure disappear at that point. The Labour MP is shockingly poor with her mantra of trans women are women.

I almost feel sorry for her. At some point in the future she will be kept up at night cringing sooooo hard about this. It's going to follow her into old age. I mean honestly, imagine quoting some nonsense buzzwords about 'science' to Robert Winston! She obviously didn't have the very first clue who had just been talking. I feel such second hand embarrassment for her. She looked the absolute definition of gormless.

And that's just the cringe in her own head. She was on national tv, watched by millions. She's a drama student. So imagine she ever becomes successful as an actor? Clips of her quoting 'the science' while one of the world's most preeminent biologists holds his head in his hands at her sheer stupidity, will abound on the comments of anything she is ever cast in or appears in. Realistically she isn't going to make it in theatre/tv/film, as most drama students don't. But it could still follow her through life. Co-workers, new romantic partners, her children, could all find it. Imagine having to deal with a stroppy teenager who isn't applying themselves at school and having them throw how you tried to lecture Robert Winston on his field when you had clearly not the first clue. I really, really don't envy her.

NecessaryScene

"So what is it about transwomen that makes them uniquely unable to compete against men, unlike women?"

There is I think only one example of a transwoman playing in men's sport, they are to be commended. At international level in football.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaiyah_Saelua

The arrogance/ confidence of youth will carry that daft drama student on for a couple of years yet, but eventually it will dawn on her that she was wrong when real life arrives and she is looking for a job.

I didn't see Questiontime, but I did find this Youtube video. It started off OK playing exactly what Prof Winston said, which I think the majority of people agree with.
However they then invited Shon Faye to comment on his words.

I would argue that no one has ever 'changed' their hormonal sex. As I understand they are taking hormones to surpress and override their hormonal sex aren't they? Or have I missed a development that enables people to trigger permanent changes to the hormones their body is creating?

Cancel medical intervention, stop any ‘maintenance’, no more medication, and let nature do it’s thing.

Runningupthecurtains

You are absolutely correct, they are taking artificial hormones to block their natural ones.
I have today been told that a transman can go through a male puberty, in fact most of them do and that transgender people go through two puberties.
The I emerged from the rabbit hole I had fallen down, to find Alice and the Mad Hatter taking afternoon tea

Does anyone have footage of the Drama student? I’m not in the UK, can’t access news night

@WineAway

Does anyone have footage of the Drama student? I’m not in the UK, can’t access news night

Can you access this excerpt of it?

andyoldlabour

Thanks for posting that Andy.

It lost me when S Faye said that no transwomen have ever said that people can actually change sex. We see it regularly here on MN when some posters tell us that they are female and always were and that they just had their body modified to match their actual sex.

And then goes into hormonal sex. Obviously some people take temporary or artificial change to be a change that should be considered a reality. Like that if the body would not try to produce the hormones as coded in their cells if the organs are there in working order still.

It really is a bizarre take.

@andyoldlabour

Runningupthecurtains

You are absolutely correct, they are taking artificial hormones to block their natural ones.
I have today been told that a transman can go through a male puberty, in fact most of them do and that transgender people go through two puberties.
The I emerged from the rabbit hole I had fallen down, to find Alice and the Mad Hatter taking afternoon tea

So the got ya used by Shon of 'oh you tiresome, deliberately misconstruing people, when we say changed sex we obviously don't mean chromosomes we mean hormones, you are all so bothersome.' Should actually have a little footnote to highlight that this change is not actually a change to the bodies system just a potentially temporary alteration that has to be maintained in order not to revert to the bodies natal hormones and the preferred definition trans doesn't require a TW to do that anyway.

And when Winston talks about "hormonal sex", I'm pretty certain he would only do so in the sense of the natural state. Using it as part of a descriptor of a DSD.

The female East German athletes doping with testosterone did not have a "male hormonal sex".

[quote andyoldlabour]I didn't see Questiontime, but I did find this Youtube video. It started off OK playing exactly what Prof Winston said, which I think the majority of people agree with.
However they then invited Shon Faye to comment on his words.

[/quote] I had to laugh when the presenter described Winston as a "TV doctor and scientist". It reminded me of those adverts where someone used to say "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV." It was a neat way to belittle him right off the bat.

It lost me when S Faye said that no transwomen have ever said that people can actually change sex.

It would also appear to be news to Fiona Bruce, judging by her reaction.