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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Question Time right now!

999 replies

Seeingadistance · 14/10/2021 23:24

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

OP posts:
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OldCrone · 17/10/2021 18:53

I had to laugh when the presenter described Winston as a "TV doctor and scientist". It reminded me of those adverts where someone used to say "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV." It was a neat way to belittle him right off the bat.

I just clicked on the youtube link. In the description it says:

Michael Walker is joined by Shon Faye, best-selling author of "The Transgender Issue: An Argument for Justice", who dismantles TV scientist Robert Winston's claims about 'biological sex'.

Cwenthryth · 17/10/2021 19:00

TV scientist!!!! He’s not fucking Bill Nye 😂 goddess these children are just all so poorly informed. How is that when they have almost the entirety of human knowledge quite literally available in their pockets???

Kosmin · 17/10/2021 19:15

I thought this was an amusing exchange (1:12-1:17):

FB: Well obviously there are trans who say you absolutely can do that.
RW: Well unfortunately you can't say this publicly.

I think by "do that" Bruce was referring to change sex, but it seems Winston misheard or misinterpreted as referring to questioning the claim that you can change sex.

Runningupthecurtains · 17/10/2021 20:54

TV scientist? He's an Emeritus Professor and medical doctor with hundreds of papers published and a string of letters after his name not someone who used to have a part in 'Waking the Dead' Hmm

Georgist · 17/10/2021 21:06

@Helleofabore

Why do you think DSD athletes were required to reduce their testosterone levels,

Just coming back to this.

And again I repeat loudly that I did not say that an elite athlete already at the top of their performance could lower testosterone and change their training to better than their world record performance!

If you also read any of the studies posted and mentioned, or even applied any critical thought. You also would know that male puberty confers many, many other advantages that lowered testosterone can NEVER change.

Things like
-larger hearts and lungs to get higher oxygenated blood around the body faster.
-different musculature such as twitch muscles.
-skeletal differences that include pelvic alignment (better for running, leverage differences…. Even a harder skull to withstand impact from fists and other contact
-reaction times from seeing something to reacting to it.

There are many. And there is plenty of information out there if you cared to read it about the fact that these advantages cannot be mitigated at the moment, and may never been able to be mitigated, to allow fair competition.

Even in archery and shooting, males have advantages.

So, maybe you could also answer the question I asked about why you say transitioned males can no longer compete with males?

To be clear, I refer to this assertion here.

I think it's fair enough to say that this TW can't compete in either male or female contact sports ‘,

What exactly is it that you feel prevents a male competing with other males after they have transitioned?

I didn't say that you did say that "an elite athlete already at the top of their performance could lower testosterone and change their training to better than their world record performance!"

I'm saying that if it were the case that mediocre athletes could lower testosterone and change their training to improve performance, the same would apply to elite athletes, unless there is a fundamental difference in their physiology.

I don't see what sort of fundamental physiological difference could exist.

Regarding males competing with other males after they have transitioned, I think the arguments are the same as females competing with other females after they have transitioned - both cases are unsafe in contact sports and I have repeatedly said that trans should be restricted in these cases. Men still have the advantage a male body even if they have lowered testosterone, so they may be at an advantage against women but a disadvantage against men. Women will still have the disadvantage of a female body even if they have higher testosterone, so they may be at an advantage against women, but a disadvantage against men.

Helleofabore · 17/10/2021 21:25

I'm saying that if it were the case that mediocre athletes could lower testosterone and change their training to improve performance, the same would apply to elite athletes, unless there is a fundamental difference in their physiology.

A difference between an intensely trained athlete at the peak of their performance with little scope of further improvement vs a mediocre athlete with a great deal of scope to improve performance who transitions and then trains to reverse the effect of reduction of testosterone…

I wonder just what physiological difference that would be?

Helleofabore · 17/10/2021 21:31

Regarding males competing with other males after they have transitioned, I think the arguments are the same as females competing with other females after they have transitioned - both cases are unsafe in contact sports and I have repeatedly said that trans should be restricted in these cases. Men still have the advantage a male body even if they have lowered testosterone, so they may be at an advantage against women but a disadvantage against men. Women will still have the disadvantage of a female body even if they have higher testosterone, so they may be at an advantage against women, but a disadvantage against men.

What is the solution you propose? I’d this an argument pointing out that there should be a point where people need to take responsibility for their medical decisions like other people who have to make a decision about the medication that make mean they can no longer play the sport they wish?

334bu · 17/10/2021 21:36

Men still have the advantage a male body even if they have lowered testosterone, so they may be at an advantage against women but a disadvantage against men. Women will still have the disadvantage of a female body even if they have higher testosterone, so they may be at an advantage against women, but a disadvantage against men.
Not necessarily the case as there seems to be some evidence that any temporary reduction in performance can be gained back through training. Therefore transwomen should be able to compete against men. However, many transwomen because of age or ability can no longer or have never been able to compete against men but can still excel against women.

NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 21:58

That's Lord Winston to you, random interview man.

Or a bit more, but still not all of it,

The Right Honourable Professor
The Lord Winston of Hammersmith
(FMedSci FRSA FRCP FRCOG FRSB FREng).

TV doctor Robbie Winston points 'demolished' I hear.

The demolisher must be an incredible intellect with a gift for delivering extremely complex concepts in language clear enough to be widely understood. A skill lord Winston is long famous for, hence his popularity with the public mainly via his work in television including the BAFTA award winning series 'the human body'.

Highlights of his awards etc-

Honours and awards Edit
Cedric Carter Medal, Clinical Genetics Society, 1993
Victor Bonney Medal for contributions to surgery, Royal College of Surgeons, 1993
Gold Medallist, Royal Society of Health, 1998
Fellow of the Academy of Medical Sciences (FMedSci), 1998
British Medical Association Gold Award for Medicine in the Media, 1999
Michael Faraday Prize, Royal Society, 1999
Edwin Stevens Medal (the Royal Society of Medicine) 2003
Aventis Prize, Royal Society 2004
Al-Hammadi Medal, Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh 2005
Twenty-three honorary doctorates
The VLV Award for the most outstanding personal contribution to British television in 2004[citation needed]
Honoured by the City of Westminster at a Marylebone tree planting ceremony in July 2011[24][25]
Honorary Fellow[2] of the Royal Academy of Engineering[2] in 2008.
Honorary degrees Edit
Winston has received at least 23 honorary degrees,

NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 22:00

Having a new media friendly individual who meets/ maybe surpasses him when it comes to matters of science, medicine and biology is really exciting!

Checking them out now.

Helleofabore · 17/10/2021 22:04

Regarding males competing with other males after they have transitioned, I think the arguments are the same as females competing with other females after they have transitioned - both cases are unsafe in contact sports and I have repeatedly said that trans should be restricted in these cases. Men still have the advantage a male body even if they have lowered testosterone, so they may be at an advantage against women but a disadvantage against men. Women will still have the disadvantage of a female body even if they have higher testosterone, so they may be at an advantage against women, but a disadvantage against men.

Are you also arguing that a male with reduced testosterone due to a medical condition can no longer compete or play safely with other males?

The difference between a male transitioner and a male who has a medical condition or naturally low testosterone at the lower end of the range for males, is what?

So all males should have their testosterone levels checked before being allowed to play against other males? By the way, there is NO requirements for females who have medical conditions that have raised testosterone (within the levels for females).

NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 22:04

'Shon Faye (born 27 March 1988) is an English writer, editor, journalist, and presenter, known for her commentary on LGBTQ+, women's, and mental health issues.

She studied English Literature at the University of Oxford, followed by a Graduate Diploma in Law.[2] Faye moved to London in her early twenties, where she worked as a lawyer'.

Certainly an impressive education and career.

I can't see the sciencey bits though. Have I missed something?

Runningupthecurtains · 17/10/2021 22:11

English writer, editor, journalist, and presenter, known for her commentary on LGBTQ+, women's, and mental health issues.
well qualified to speak on women's issues though ehh?

WinterTrees · 17/10/2021 22:20

The only commentary I've heard from Shon Faye on women's issues is 'enjoy ur erasure'.

NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 22:21

What I find fascinating is that-

For literally millennia, over the world. There has been some focus in disciplines eg medicine, philosophy, psychology/psychiatry.

To theorise, experiment, study etc. Either why women are inferior, or given certain obvious differences between women and men, to understand why they exist and how extreme these differences are.

From ancient Greece with women being like men but defective/ inferior.

To Freud with penis envy etc so much stuff.

To studies related to our capacity for logic, strategy Vs emotion and nurturing.

To explaining that women and girls like pink as it's hard wired due to our role through prehistory as berry gatherers.

And so so much more. Just SO much more.

Over and over reams of papers, musings, theories, studies, lectures etc focused on essentially trying to explain why we were the things that we were expected to be, why we lacked whatever attributes we were thought to have at the time. Conversely why we were naturally well suited to, and derived satisfaction from, whatever was seen as useful, suitable for us to do in society at the time.

Runningupthecurtains · 17/10/2021 22:25

As there is no requirement for hormone treatment to be classed as trans I would suggest that any man who wished to continue in sport and transition does so without altering their hormones to a point that would be dangerous to them to compete. But as most the advantages of male pubity remain regardless testosterone levels it shouldn't be an issue anyway.

NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 22:28

And in the last few years. ONLY in countries where women and girls have started getting more opportunities, visibility in well paid careers/politics/sport etc. And ONLY in countries with a less oppressive view of homosexuality, freedom for women to dress, socialise etc pretty freely.

Is the a total 180.

And millennia of the broad interest in pondering WHY women and girls are essentially different to men and boys.

Suddenly turns attention to trying to prove that actually. Sometimes males essentially ARE female. Using any method they can think of.

Male and female brains are back!
Showing that stereotypes around us are INNATE and actually those stereotypes are what really matters.
Etc etc.

There is a VERY OBVIOUS thing about what happened for those millennia, and the switch of focus now.

I'm sure I don't need to point out out to most people on here GrinAngry

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 17/10/2021 22:32

@WinterTrees

The only commentary I've heard from Shon Faye on women's issues is 'enjoy ur erasure'.
More wisdom on show here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3531137-Shon-Faye-publishing-book-on-trans-rights?msgid=109312830
NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 22:53

And now it's us being TOLD to prove. What all those scientists philosophers etc (mainly male ones and of course the sciences have been intensely misogynistic in loads of ways since they came into being.

To PROVE that yes. Male and female animals do in fact have some differences (blindingly obvious massive ones that have always been taken as read because... Well obviously) that are FUNDAMENTAL.

And also some differences in behaviour, and the existence of a hierarchy, which have for thousands of years at least, and continue to have now, a huge negative impact on women and girls globally. Nature / nurture? Interesting. But the statistics, laws, impact on us are undeniable. Just watch the global news for a bit...

We have things we fought for and built and NEED for a variety of reasons opened up to males. And after the even we are TOLD we have to do studies etc to get them back.

Big ask. Given the history. It's a sneering, gloating, piss taking ask. Sorry. Demand.

And when arguments are put forward. Rational logical arguments invoking some of the most basic fundamental universal knowledge about sex in humans....

There is never a straight rational logical direct argument in response.

We get witterings about clownfish, how donning the current trappings of femininity means everyone will read woman ( female). How the words woman girl have ALWAYS meant a social role. And with tricky subjects eg abortion it's exclusionary to mention it except in a handful of acceptable contexts. Raising oppression through history and now, around the world. Either gets a total change of subject or (mind bogglingly) the response that there aren't exactly going to be many if any trans people in those countries...

So round we go.

NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 22:58

Sorry back on topic.

Where are we? Batting away random ideas about doing this or that with testosterone means that women and girls are just as big, strong, fast etc as boys and men?

Because testosterone is the be all and end all. Because you know it's the MAN AGGRESSION PENIS HORMONE.

sigh.

(Anyone else read testosterone rex? Vv good and interesting. And balanced. Vv positive about men. That they aren't generally mate hunting seed sowing violent thugs. But feminists know this already. It's men as a group who need to get that message).

Georgist · 17/10/2021 23:02

@Helleofabore
*A difference between an intensely trained athlete at the peak of their performance with little scope of further improvement vs a mediocre athlete with a great deal of scope to improve performance who transitions and then trains to reverse the effect of reduction of testosterone…

I wonder just what physiological difference that would be?*

That would be a difference of degree, not a fundamental difference!

If a man who is a mediocre athlete reduces his testosterone and increases his training in order to regain his previous performance level, all he has done is demonstrate that he had not previously reached his full potential as he had been training sub-optimally.

I had previously thought you were implying something different by saying "changing their training" - I thought you meant different training methods would become effective as a result of reducing testosterone.

I don't think the possibility of regaining a previous performance level by increasing training is particular relevant. Athletes will generally do the amount of training appropriate for their lifestyle. Consider the examples of athletes obtaining sports scholarships in the USA. They will typically be training less than professional athletes as they have other responsibilities. A TW may be able to increase training to regain his previous level. By the same token, maybe the girls in competition with the TW could increase their training to beat the TW. But either the TW or the girls might not find the required increase in training volume feasible (it may lead to injury, or it may compromise their studies).

What is the solution you propose?

I don't think there is much to say about contact sports. I think the common sense solution is to impose bans where there is likelihood or significant risk of serious injury. Individuals could be allowed to make their own choices, but I think that would be problematic in a lot of cases (e.g. not having the information and not knowing in advance who the competitors would be).

There are a lot of options for non-contact sports. Of course bans could be implemented here for many sports as well, on the grounds of fairness. There are some where complete bans definitely wouldn't be required. For example, in road races men and women tend to run together (only a few big city marathons tend to have separate starts for elite men and elite women). The only question is how prize categories are determined. And open track races are often graded (e.g. you state your personal best and/or recent and expected form and are put in an appropriate paced race - it is common for men and women of a variety of ages to run together - the objective is to run as fast as possible rather than necessarily win, so it would make no difference if a woman lost to a man or a TW). The remaining question in athletics is what should happen in championships and team competitions.
Maybe they should be banned from female team competitions.
I think perhaps this is more contentious in the USA, because athletics is so much more team focused over there. In the USA you compete for your school or college, whereas in the UK you compete for your club. A girl in a US high school trains with the other girls on the her high school team (and similarly at the college level) - they probably all shower and change together after training at school and they are seeking college scholarships, so I can see how these have been problematic. A girl in a club at the UK will typically train with a group appropriate to her ability, which usually includes a mix of males and females and at the end of the session everyone goes home and showers and changes. She will typically compete for the club team and in open competitions, but it's up to her. If she isn't picked for the team she can always compete in opens, or switch to another club. If she is very good, this may be a factor in which universities she applies to, but there isn't the same system of scholarships or university competitions. It's still all very individual focused, so the capacity for anyone to be unfairly deprived of opportunities does seem to be reduced.

334bu · 17/10/2021 23:26

Maybe we should simply say that unless it can be scientifically proven that the inclusion of male athletes who identify as women into the female sports categories, is in no way detrimental to the female athletes, then like other men they are automatically excluded. Simple

NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 23:39

Just one quick thing -

'maybe the girls in competition with the TW could increase their training to beat the TW'

Why would girls be competing against an adult?

I skimmed yesterday and saw age mentioned but it's a long thread didn't read it.

Runningupthecurtains · 17/10/2021 23:44

Call yourself whatever you like, wear whatever you want but keep out of women's spaces unless you are a woman. As we have now have the definitive statement above from Shon that TW never claim to have changed sex that should be pretty easy.

NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 23:51

@334bu

Maybe we should simply say that unless it can be scientifically proven that the inclusion of male athletes who identify as women into the female sports categories, is in no way detrimental to the female athletes, then like other men they are automatically excluded. Simple
  1. Individually? Work out ALL the parameters? Give acceptable limits for them all? Including how they interact? And then who pays for these batteries of tests, assessing results etc. There would need to be processes for challenging as imagine would happen a fair bit. Etc etc.

However while this conversation understandably focuses on biology (ignoring the fact that the sexes have competed separately in most sports for yonks... For many, when we were finally allowed to do them in organised events 🙄). For reasons that were just blindingly obvious...

There are other considerations as well. Which are much less tangible, vary massively around the world, and extremely open to 'debate' that would be endless...

Nevertheless it's not just physicality. Things that I imagine could/ would reduce numbers of girls getting into/ pursuing / loving/ competing at the start/ early on. And so haemorrhaging the pipeline through to the top.