Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

I assume it hasn't been a big problem, so nobody has felt the need to try to educate anyone.

Or some people with penises decided to ignore the dramatic rise in other males declaring themselves trans.

Up to you what you believe.

Considering feminists have been stating that there are issues around this for over a decade, I know which I choose to believe.

This is what I mean by junk science - they look at some untrained people and extrapolate to serious athletes.

I look forward to seeing your evidence to the contrary.

@Helleofabore

This is what I mean by junk science - they look at some untrained people and extrapolate to serious athletes.

I look forward to seeing your evidence to the contrary.

How can I disprove your claim that Usain Bolt could transition, slowly his 100m time from 9.58 to around 10.1, then change his training and possibly run 9.57 or faster?

@Helleofabore

I assume it hasn't been a big problem, so nobody has felt the need to try to educate anyone.

Or some people with penises decided to ignore the dramatic rise in other males declaring themselves trans.

Up to you what you believe.

Considering feminists have been stating that there are issues around this for over a decade, I know which I choose to believe.

Sorry, I misread your question. I thought you said: "In fact, why has there been no campaign over the past 10 years to educate males to accept and welcome transitioned FEMALES into the male single sex spaces?"

The transitioned males haven't been requesting going in the male spaces, so why would there be a campaign for men to accept them?

Women’s USA football team World Cup winners got beat 5-2 by and under 15 boys team.

Women’s football Australia team 5 th in world got beat 7-2 by a boys under 15 team

There we go

These are elite women footballers got beat by boys 15 and under

In the conclusion, the paper states: "The research conducted so far has studied untrained transgender women."
This is what I mean by junk science - they look at some untrained people and extrapolate to serious athletes.

Perhaps if you read further you would have seen this.

While there is certainly a need for more focused research on this topic, including more comprehensive performance tests in transgender women athletes and studies on training capacity of transgender women undergoing hormone therapy, it is still important to recognize that the biological factors underpinning athletic performance are unequivocally established. It is, therefore, possible to make strong inferences and discuss potential performance implications despite the lack of direct sport-specific studies in athletes.

In essence, you have provided no evidence to contradict this study nor the other study that reached similar conclusions.

Nor the USAF study.

Nor the world rugby decision who searched extensively for an answer.

Nor the Sports Council decision.

How can I disprove your claim that Usain Bolt could transition, slowly his 100m time from 9.58 to around 10.1, then change his training and possibly run 9.57 or faster?

Again, not the point I was stating. I was also clear that I was not talking about elite athletes at the top of their performance.

But please do keep on going.

I am truly not sure what your aim is here.

But I am perfectly happy to keep refuting your false claims. It is good for lurkers. They actually do go and read the full studies and links.

The transitioned males haven't been requesting going in the male spaces, so why would there be a campaign for men to accept them?

Yes…. Why would they campaign just because women were saying ‘no’? It really baffles me….

Well this thread has been led a merry dance away from what Robert Winston said, hasn’t it?

I agree with him. Most people do. Presenters whose job it is to be neutral and fair need to stop treating the topic with kid gloves, drop the dramatic teeth sucking as

Waaah!! Posted too soon. Drop the dramatic teeth sucking at the mere suggestion that the topic should be discussed, and just facilitate the discussion.

@Sophoclesthefox

Waaah!! Posted too soon. Drop the dramatic teeth sucking at the mere suggestion that the topic should be discussed, and just facilitate the discussion.

It's not as if Fiona Bruce lacks the presenter experience that would have allowed her to do this.

As PPs indicate, I'd have been interested to know why the young people perceive the material reality of dimorphic sex classes to be so unsafe.

Hopefully my last post on this.

For any others who are interested, Ross Tucker has also been heavily involved with these discussions. And is very much up to date with the research (and the upcoming research which he hints doesn’t change his mind at all). Both the trans inclusion issue and the athletes with differences of sex development (he was involved in the Semenya court case).

He has a few podcasts on the issue.

t.co/guStyt54e6

I think the issue was acceptance. Nobody was questioning whether Oscar Pistorius was a man (they could have ruled that he wasn't allowed to compete and that would have been entirely separate from his personal identity).

Completely missing the point. The question was whether he had an advantage over the other athletes by using his blades. Nothing to do with identity or being accepted. The only relevance to this discussion is the analogy with male people having an advantage over female people.

Whereas TW are struggling, rightly or wrongly, to gain acceptance as women.

But TW are male and women are female, so they want to gain acceptance as something they are not, which has an impact on female people.

So some trans activists have made a big deal out of gaining acceptance as woman and I think that's why they've been allowed to compete. A significant group of people believe they should be accepted as women, and so it follows in their minds that they can compete with women.

People who are not women (male people, however they identify) should not be allowed to compete in the women's category. Why is this so difficult to understand?

I was trying to make the point previously that one problem for sensible critiques of TW in sport is the entirely separate existence of hate towards trans people.

Much of this is coming from men. Nothing to do with women. Why does hatred of trans people from men result in the invasion of women's sport? It's nothing to do with us. You should be discussing this with the men.

Ross Tucker is very good on this- he explains everything very clearly.

He distils it to its essence, which is- when balancing safety, fairness and inclusion in women’s sports, you really have to do it in that order. Any other order poses unacceptable risks and barriers to women competing. It’s not really very complicated at all.

And you might well agree with Dr Winston and he is of course scientifically correct but whether we like it or not people do, have and will continue to change their sex, as far as they possibly can. It's not just about science. In our day to day lives we tend not to ask for DNA tests. Lots of folk pass as the opposite sex. They may not scientifically have changed but for all other intents and purposes they have whether we like it or not.

I had someone say this to me on another thread.

What does it mean? I'm not a native speaker.

What does it mean? I'm not a native speaker.

It means that somebody is arguing that we should disregard the reality Prof Sir Robert Winston describes and one that is universally accepted because some people have chosen to substitute their own fiction reality instead. What is more disturbing is that they are trying to argue that this perspective is widespread among other people in contemporary society.

I’m a native speaker, and I don’t know either, lady. I think what the writer is saying is that sex is very mysterious and unknowable without a dna test.

Quite how this squares with humanity managing to successfully reproduce itself for hundreds of thousands of years before knowing about dna isn’t clear to me though…

I do wonder how people who think that cope with the cognitive dissonance of walking around constantly overriding the evidence of their eyes as they pass hundreds of men, women, girls and boys in the street every day by telling themselves that they couldn’t possibly know the sex of everyone around them. Must be exhausting

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

What does it mean? I'm not a native speaker.

It means that somebody is arguing that we should disregard the reality Prof Sir Robert Winston describes and one that is universally accepted because some people have chosen to substitute their own fiction reality instead. What is more disturbing is that they are trying to argue that this perspective is widespread among other people in contemporary society.

Thanks, my head is spinning for all of this. The Prof is correct in saying that people can't change sex but then goes on to say people will be changing sex. I further asked the honorable person what socially changing sex means. I'm trying my best to understand, honestly. "It means that if I'm born a man but I feel like a woman and people who meet me think I'm a woman then socially I'm a woman. Sex is a biological term and I assume that's what you're getting at so Of it makes you feel better then I suppose I've changed gender rather than sex but what difference does that make really? In my day to day life I'm a woman." What patronizing tosh.

In fact, why has there been no campaign over the past 10 years to educate males to accept and welcome transitioned males into the male single sex spaces?

I assume it hasn't been a big problem, so nobody has felt the need to try to educate anyone.

So the acceptance of gender non-conforming males into male single sex spaces and sports isn't a problem? Good. They can stay out of women-only spaces and sports and the other men will welcome them as males.

Can someone tell the males who are trying to invade women's sports and spaces that the other men say they are welcome to compete against males?

It means that they-

Are saying what they want to be true not what is.
That DNA tests are the only way to know male/ female.
That they think sex in general and esp how others read it. Is totally only down to attire, hair, boobs or not etc.

Oh my goodness, the lack of depth to the TWAW argument is so apparent.

It is an argument but it's not one that anyone can argue with using well. Anything. History, biology, common sense, laws, obvious risks, pointing out massive inconsistencies etc.

Because the 'argument' is not the point. It's emotional + belief. For some it's not to do with supporting trans people at all.

The 'arguments' are just whatever is being said at the moment to give some kind of rationale. The arguments change fast to keep up with things that have happened. They don't matter. They are a means to an end.

@MassiveHoard

Oh my goodness, the lack of depth to the TWAW argument is so apparent.

Oh. I am still looking forward to seeing the evidence that refutes the studies that conclude that on average males who transition lose very little of their advantage. And the fact that there is also evidence that mediocre males who transition can, with training, reverse the decrease.

(And again, I state that athletes already at the peak of their performance may or may not reverse the effect of hormone therapy to regain their performance. That would make a great study. But I am talking about one study that did show a male transitioner regained their performance advantage through training. Frankly, I can’t be arsed to go and find it though).

"It means that if I'm born a man but I feel like a woman and people who meet me think I'm a woman then socially I'm a woman. Sex is a biological term and I assume that's what you're getting at so Of it makes you feel better then I suppose I've changed gender rather than sex but what difference does that make really? In my day to day life I'm a woman."

I wonder, does it make a difference if it’s actually something more like:
“It means that if I'm born a man but I feel like a woman and people who meet me pretend to think I’m a woman even though they can clearly see I’m not, just for the sake of politeness/kindness”

Because we all know quite well that for the vast majority of transwomen, they don’t actually “pass”, and people really don’t think they are women, but are engaging in a polite fiction of humouring the person and treating them as though they believe the person is a woman.

So is that different? Does that mean someone’s changed gender? Or that someone is living life as a woman? If everyone around them is fully aware they are not, but pretending they are?

Do we all have to actually believe, like in Peter Pan, to make the gender magic work; or is it enough just knowingly to pretend?