Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

Labour won’t remove the whip or expel him from the party for saying sex is real and immutable. Would they?

That's why I (and probably PPs) asked upthread if anyone had seen anything from the Labour Party in specific response to Winston's stance during QT.

I wonder if this will come up on Marr tomorrow morning or are we past the stage where Marr and his producers might find this a useful question?

I think everything for a while now will be about David Ames in terms of mainstream political media. Understandably.

Are you saying that is an argument for allowing them to compete in contact sports?!

I am disputing your point ‘ I think it's fair enough to say that this TW can't compete in either male or female contact sports ‘,

I am saying that the evidence contradicts YOUR point. Those males can easily compete in the male category still as per normal. It is their choice not to. It is also their choice to ignore the evidence and to push their agenda.

@Cwenthryth

I think everything for a while now will be about David Ames in terms of mainstream political media. Understandably.

I never know what can be discussed when a suspect is in custody.

But if the TW can't use either toilet/changing facilities (men object because she looks like a woman and women object because she isn't a woman) then what options does she/he have?

Perhaps those third spaces we and many others keep suggesting. Perhaps when women started saying no, instead of pushing their entitlement and insisting that to debate is to say trans people don’t exist, they should have started a dialogue and helped come up with a viable solution. But that did not happen.

Why do women have to provide the answer?

@Theeyeballsinthesky

No I think that tje vast majority of the public haven’t a clue that the definition of trans used in such polls is the stonewall definition ie ranging from NB, ppl who cross dress, and ppl who feel like a woman on certain days of the week

I agree.

Most people think that women are just bullying Hayley off Coronation Street and making her cry.

They have NO IDEA about the abuse, the rape and murder threats, the abuse of power in the cancellation of women. They have NO IDEA that almost all MtF transpersons (97% IIRC) keep their fully functioning male genitalia but demand access to women's safe spaces. Or that some of them claim to be "gender fluid" - they are meant when it suits them to be, and women when it suits them to be.

@Helleofabore

But if the TW can't use either toilet/changing facilities (men object because she looks like a woman and women object because she isn't a woman) then what options does she/he have?

Perhaps those third spaces we and many others keep suggesting. Perhaps when women started saying no, instead of pushing their entitlement and insisting that to debate is to say trans people don’t exist, they should have started a dialogue and helped come up with a viable solution. But that did not happen.

Why do women have to provide the answer?

The transwoman is actually a man, so clearly should use the men's and not the women's. Yes, why is it left to women to provide all the answers?

In fact, why has there been no campaign over the past 10 years to educate males to accept and welcome transitioned males into the male single sex spaces?

I mean, if it isn’t just about validation and all that ….

Not RTFT but is there a repeat of this somewhere?

@BlackAlys

Not RTFT but is there a repeat of this somewhere?

Try here from 39:45

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0010k4m/question-time-2021-14102021

@BlackAlys

Not RTFT but is there a repeat of this somewhere?

Good call. It's unedifying and got derailed around P18. We should have used a grey rock back then.

I think there was a link somewhere at the beginning but is it not just available on iplayer? It's about 45 min in IIRC?

@Helleofabore
" on average males who transition lose about 5% of their advantage. And that there is evidence that with a change in training, they can not only recover that but improve on their previous performance."

This is clearly not true. That's either junk science or has been misquoted.

Georgist

You have clearly not read the studies then.

In fact, have you done any reading on this topic at all?

Would you like to post studies that disprove my statement?

@Theeyeballsinthesky
"No I think that tje vast majority of the public haven’t a clue that the definition of trans used in such polls is the stonewall definition ie ranging from NB, ppl who cross dress, and ppl who feel like a woman on certain days of the week"

OK, do you have a survey which you consider credible?

"In fact, why has there been no campaign over the past 10 years to educate males to accept and welcome transitioned males into the male single sex spaces?

I mean, if it isn’t just about validation and all that …."

^This. (Also, toxic masculinity).

@Helleofabore

Georgist

You have clearly not read the studies then.

If those studies applied to serious athletes it would imply a male world record holder could transition, then change their training and improve on their existing world record! That is a ludicrous claim.

You mentioned losing 5% of their advantage. If a world record holder were 5% slower, that would reduce them to borderline Olympic qualification standard. There is no way so a huge difference could be made up with a training change. Why would you think a training change help anyway?

Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

I am happy to post another study by a trans researcher and their team that reached similar conclusions. That researcher was responsible for providing a poorly evidenced research paper a few years ago to the IOC which convinced them to change their guidelines. They now have changed their tack to inclusion being the priority over fairness because their own review of the same evidence as the other study came to similar conclusions.

There is also a USAF study that has supported both of these studies findings.

@Helleofabore

In fact, why has there been no campaign over the past 10 years to educate males to accept and welcome transitioned males into the male single sex spaces?

I mean, if it isn’t just about validation and all that ….

I assume it hasn't been a big problem, so nobody has felt the need to try to educate anyone.

I get the impression that somebody on here is just trying to provoke responses without actually contributing anything.

I'd even wonder if they were writing an essay either at school or Uni and were getting others to do their research and/or to provide quotes as examples of unreasonable trans excluding women

I don't think it's worth engaging further.

Hear hear @prettybird
Unbelievable

If those studies applied to serious athletes it would imply a male world record holder could transition, then change their training and improve on their existing world record! That is a ludicrous claim.

I have not made that claim about an elite athlete level doing better than their previous record. Because that would indeed be ludicrous.

However, a mediocre male who transitions, can indeed negate the effect of hormone therapy.

[quote Helleofabore]Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3[/quote]
Why do you think DSD athletes were required to reduce their testosterone levels, if it were possible this would improve their performances? Or does this not apply to DSD athletes?

Caster Semanya went from almost breaking the world record to not even being able to qualify for international championships. Doesn't that suggest to you there is something wrong with the research you quote?

In the conclusion, the paper states: "The research conducted so far has studied untrained transgender women."
This is what I mean by junk science - they look at some untrained people and extrapolate to serious athletes.