Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

Does anyone have any idea how/ why "I disagree with you" makes someone feel unsafe?

It doesn't imo. They've just learned that when they say that, nice people sometimes shut up or back down because they don't want to be accused of endangering anyone. It's like a small child realising they can get what they want by throwing a tantrum.

Its like people getting prosecuted centuries ago for saying the world was round and not flat. You would have thought we have moved on. Apparently not.

Being born in the wrong body is such an offensive concept for those born disabled. They can't just identify out of being disabled.

I come back again and again to seeing transgender ideology as a luxury bourgeois belief held in the main by white middle class folk who don't have anything worse to worry about. It speaks to the vacuity and emptiness of a lot of people's lives that, despite knowing what a woman is when it comes to Afghanistan and the Taliban, they keep up the pretence of biological sex being a choice here.

@lazylinguist

Does anyone have any idea how/ why "I disagree with you" makes someone feel unsafe?

It doesn't imo. They've just learned that when they say that, nice people sometimes shut up or back down because they don't want to be accused of endangering anyone. It's like a small child realising they can get what they want by throwing a tantrum.

Toddler them back:

How?
Why do you feel that way?
What makes you say that?
Who says?
What have you seen that makes you feel that way?
Please provide actual examples.

[quote WinterTrees]Robert Winston is trending on Twitter just now. Many people with anime avatars lining up to say how wrong he is about science. Including an account that goes by the name of Popeye the Sailor Tran, who destroys the eminent professor thusly:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BIOLOGICAL SEX there is an aggregate of 5 different biological data that we collect about infants that all present in various ranges and change over time. I'm sorry that science has improved since you went to high school 40 years ago

twitter.com/HamletHologram/status/1448295221545115653[/quote]
Reminds me of the 'Do you know WHO I AM?' tone of Rachel McKinnon/Veronica Ivy to Martina Navratilova

Being born in the wrong body is such an offensive concept for those born disabled. They can't just identify out of being disabled.

Exactly. If what you are is based on feelz, then why is it not ok to say you are black, Chinese, blind or deaf or 3 years old just because you feel that way? And why would people laugh if you were 5'2" and announced you identified as being 6'4"?

And thanks to Motorina and ThumbWitchesAbroad - I had not considered the hormonal aspects of DSDs in my post, it makes perfect sense now.

I just can't get over these ignorant twerps being so rude to Robert Winston. Their parents and grandparents would be mortified.

These people have no conception of just how stupid they are and how brilliant he is.

How have we got to a situation where a whole generation believes being told the truth makes them unsafe. I hate the phrase snowflakes but it really is that isn't it. Have we honestly mollycoddled them that much that they can't accept disagreements. Have we over protected the next generation so that they can't handle or deal with disagreements.

I don't really understand the concept of being born in the wrong body either?

It makes sense to those believe in a gendered essence which exists totally separately from the body. A sort of soul. So your "woman essence" can accidentally end up in a body which is supposed to host a "man essence". If you don't believe in souls or unmeasurable essences it makes no sense though.

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus

How have we got to a situation where a whole generation believes being told the truth makes them unsafe. I hate the phrase snowflakes but it really is that isn't it. Have we honestly mollycoddled them that much that they can't accept disagreements. Have we over protected the next generation so that they can't handle or deal with disagreements.

We have allowed political groups like Stonewall to uncritically "educate" children in schools with their unscientific ideological views and beliefs with no challenge or balance - this is a first as until now education was meant to be politically neutral / balanced. I suspect we're now seeing the consequences of this.

@Viviennemary

Its like people getting prosecuted centuries ago for saying the world was round and not flat. You would have thought we have moved on. Apparently not.

It’s a good analogy. We’re at a point where a basic scientific fact is seen as unmentionable . The audience member asked what Stott had actually said and Fiona Bruce said she shared similar ‘views’ to Winston. She clearly felt uncomfortable repeating this view ( actually not a view, a basic scientific fact). We should be able to mention biological facts and discuss these facts in relation to women’s rights. The only person looking ‘not safe’ right now is Stott. The reaction of her union is a disgrace as was the mealy mouthed responses of the Labour mp last night. So much talk of respect but not one ounce of condemnation for balaclava wearing campus thugs and their attempt to intimidate a female professor.

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus

There are a LOT of people who do think like this of that age, but I assure you there is a group of silent people out there too.

My DS19 is at uni for example, and all his friends are not snowflakes. Very robust debate and critical thinking and have absolutely not fallen into this crap shite. His friends from home are also non snowflake.

Of course, they cannot actually speak up so much right now but they are there......waiting until it is safe

My youngest DS is doing a psychology A-Level however and there is absolute batshittery going on there....he has challenged some things very politely around sex and gender but obviously got called a bigot by some of his fellow students, so is treading cautiously. The point being, there are people ready to challenge, and they will when the time is right....which I hope is soon because this has been dragging on for too long now.

Exactly. If what you are is based on feelz, then why is it not ok to say you are black, Chinese, blind or deaf or 3 years old just because you feel that way? And why would people laugh if you were 5'2" and announced you identified as being 6'4"?

Someone had fun testing students on this:

[quote hamstersarse]@BaronessEllarawrosaurus

There are a LOT of people who do think like this of that age, but I assure you there is a group of silent people out there too.

My DS19 is at uni for example, and all his friends are not snowflakes. Very robust debate and critical thinking and have absolutely not fallen into this crap shite. His friends from home are also non snowflake.

Of course, they cannot actually speak up so much right now but they are there......waiting until it is safe

My youngest DS is doing a psychology A-Level however and there is absolute batshittery going on there....he has challenged some things very politely around sex and gender but obviously got called a bigot by some of his fellow students, so is treading cautiously. The point being, there are people ready to challenge, and they will when the time is right....which I hope is soon because this has been dragging on for too long now.[/quote]
The bullying is keeping the sensible young people quiet and making them wait to speak up. They need to speak up and agree with the professors and the rest of us not stay silent. Challenge the bullshit because it seems to be growing and growing.

I have watched it and am glad that finally the BBC are discussing this. However I felt Fiona was very 'um ah, yes, it's very difficult' and I also felt it was poor that Lord Winston wasn't allowed to speak again especially when that ridiculous labour policitician got so much time. The problem is that there isn't a robust debate. I'm always hearing that its 'such difficult situation'. It bloody well isn't difficult as Lord Winston pointed out, it's actually very straight forward. The problem is that no-one is asking the questions and putting pressure on the people making the claims about gender.

I was annoyed that on both occasions that Fiona quoted KS, she put it out there like a half muttered throw away. I was also confused by it. What was her motivation for doing this? The statement quoted clearly demonstrated the lunacy of anyone interpreting that quote as transphobic. Why didn’t she stress every word and project it, to clarify this?

Used to quite like her but lost respect for her now. For that, and also for not giving the Prof more air time at the expense of the limp tongued waffle woman.

Has Viviennemary replied about what 'rights' trans people are lacking? Because I've been waiting years for an answer to that question?

This is still my favourite video of someone actually confronting a woke-y trans activist / snowflake

What made Jordan Peterson famous when he spoke out about enforced pronouns in Canada

You lot bigged it up too much! gah.
I was well disapointed, found it a very tepid discussion.
Would have loved to hear more from Prof Winston.

@Runningupthecurtains

I have a beloved (most of the time), precious, long awaited, delightful, wonderful, IVF child. His existence tells me that Lord Winston has a better grasp of human biology than someone who thinks humans can change sex. At no point in our almost 10 year journey to parenthood did a single medical professional suggest we might have more success if became a man and DH became a woman. I wonder why that is? Could it be because however much he wants to a man can't be pregnant? E.g. they can't change sex.

This is exactly what I always say. We went to the doctor because we couldn't conceive. They knew immediately what tests they wanted to run on both of us. My husband was sent for sperms analysis. I was sent for blood tests on my hormones. No conversation took place as to where each of us were on some 'sex spectrum' or which of us would carry the baby. Maybe everybody needs to go through ivf treatment to understand this shit.

@Fariha31

You lot bigged it up too much! gah. I was well disapointed, found it a very tepid discussion. Would have loved to hear more from Prof Winston.

Not worth watching @Fariha31? Maybe he’ll continue to speak out and encourage others too.

@Franca123

Has Viviennemary replied about what 'rights' trans people are lacking? Because I've been waiting years for an answer to that question?

No but she has said we haven’t moved on from prosecutions of the past for saying the Earth is not flat…

@Runningupthecurtains
"Does anyone have any idea how/ why "I disagree with you" makes someone feel unsafe?"

I think the reasoning is that if there is more "acceptance" of them, there will be less discrimination/abuse/attacks. Isn't there at least some evidence of this?
I think it's a bit like how do racial slurs make people feel unsafe? Because some people who use them will also carry out physical attacks.

The idea that your body has to match the sexist stereotypes the particular culture you happen to live in has foisted upon your sex is just plain regressive and something women have been resisting for millennia. The fact that we've got to the point where the aim is no longer to eradicate sexist stereotypes but to pretend sex doesn't exist, and has never existed, makes me feel I'm living in a Jonathan Swift novel.