Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

GC is gender critical and WH is Woman's Hour.

Oh was it her again? LUckily I can listen to Women's Hour over here, just can't watch the bloody tv shows.
That was brilliant - and yes, she couldn't get a point across to save her life in that discussion on TW in women's sport.

And covered in the Telegraph. They’ve been consistently reporting on this recently. Things are heating up.

From the Telegraph:
'Lord Robert Winston has said he fears he will be inundated with hate mail after backing a professor in the eye of a trans storm by saying people "can't change sex".

The biologist, who is professor of science and society at Imperial College London, warned Question Time host Fiona Bruce that producers would need to edit the program after he aired his views.'

[remainder of post redacted for copyright reasons]

I've just caught up and really liked the segment. I actually think it was quite important that the discussion was in the context of free speech / academic freedom as the erosion of those things is part of the reason we are in the situation we are in. Which is precisely what some groups and individuals want - opposing views silenced.

It did mean that the discussion regarding women's rights was a bit sidetracked, but I think that was necessary, to an extent. Now that the BBC (and other mainstream media) are more willing to discuss these issues, hopefully items like this on question time will have raised awareness that there actually is a conflict between women's rights and proposed changes to trans rights.

Nandy was not interested in weighing rights when she said the paedophile rapist should be allowed in a women's prison.

I think this is too generous. I honestly believe that Nandy has weighed the rights and decided in favour of the paedophile rapist.

@Viviennemary

Thats good. I agree. But I still think trans men and trans women should have rights.

Trans people have exactly the same rights as you and me. What extra rights do you think they should have?

For the first 20 years of my adult life I didn't have the same rights as straight people. My relationship wasn't legally recognised and I couldn't, for example, ensure my life partner received a share of my pension if I died, or pass on my estate free of IHT to her. I could (and was) denied goods and services on the basis of my sexuality. In the 80s and 90s I could have been sacked on the basis of my sexuality by my employer.

None of this applies to transgender people.

If anyone is a university student, former university student, lecturer etc, there is statement of support for Kathleen Stock circulating. There is a link at the top of the page to sign.

docs.google.com/document/d/11ZNAyfkeaPPzLd5PyEvM2NTV4SBphOWr-ueofTrtLu4/preview?pru=AAABfJ1WqHQ*PsWM87a1ln-M8n6xGF9a_Q#

Wait, someone is actually suggested to a professor in biology that science is different compared to high school 40 years ago 🤣

Wait, someone is actually suggested to a professor in biology that science is different compared to high school 40 years ago

Yes, and Winston was a significant contributor to that.

@KittenKong

Maybe they should have had an interpretive dance off. That would have been on tik tok and everything.

🤣🤣🤣 It's just so hard to know who to believe, an eminent Professor of biology or a drama student. As a biology grad, I do wonder what the prevailing beliefs would be if I was there now....

[quote Motorina]@Mummyoflittledragon fair. I claim no great expertise on this individual.

The broader point is sound though. Chromosomes = hormones = physical sex in almost all cases. Where those don't line up neatly, it's because something has gone badly wrong which is (thankfully!) rare. It's not like one of those books I had as a kid, with pictures of a teacher, a baker, a farmer etc all cut into three, so you could flip the farmer's head onto the fireman's body at will.

Basically if it looks like a duck it's genetically a duck, and tastes great with orange sauce. It's unlikely ever to look like a duck, have chicken genes, and lobster hormones.[/quote]
Sure, we are in agreement. It’s just a great deal of empathy has been shown, especially by women to an individual, who knew they were not biologically female way before competing in the international arena. CS has been treated unfairly in relation to transwomen rather than natal women.

@AnnieSnap

I cheered out loud! Interesting to see non-biologists arguing with his scientific statements. Also, I’m so tired of hearing ‘but trans people have to be respected/feel safe’. No one aside from genuine bigots is saying otherwise of course. We can respect people for their gender (social construct) choice and still acknowledge the science. I would respect any transwomen for choosing to live as a trans woman, but that doesn’t make them the same as me and it doesn’t make it fair for the transwoman to compete against biological women in sport.

Hear hear @AnnieSnap

One biological change in the past 40 years is that noted by the neurologist Proffesor Susan Greenfield, who basically says the internet does for our brains what the TV remote control does to our arses.

It also gives people who are opposed to Stock and Winston plenty of space to air their grievances.

Embarrassing Yes I didn’t express that well, I meant it didn’t say anything new, for readers who can’t see behind the paywall.

@hamstersarse

It’s progress that this was allowed on the BBC but maybe next time Brucey will dare to let someone like Winston say even more. She knew he had more to say but just couldn’t quite do it.

It’s always so fascinating that biology can be summed up rather succinctly, in a few sentences but trying to explain how trans women are women takes such mental gymnastics that it’s impossible to be succinct or anywhere near comprehensible.

As an aside, I’ve met Winston, he’s extremely disagreeable. That’s fine by me, but explains why he’s ok saying this sort of thing regularly. Gives no shits about conflict whereas a lot of these leftie folk trip themselves up to people please. Thank god for disagrreeable people,

Hear, hear to every comment you have made.

And you know - I wouldn't care if he was a complete and utter bar-steward as long as he spoke up for truth.

It's all this mealy-mouthed "Oooh - well I suppose if they are Lady Testicles you can bring them into the changing room" a la Little Britain which has got us into this mess.

Does anyone have any idea how/ why "I disagree with you" makes someone feel unsafe? Not "I disagree with you so I'm going to threaten you" not "I disagree with you so I will hurt you" not even "I disagree with you so you must change your opinion forthwith" just "I disagree". How does that make someone feel unsafe? Why is it of greater concern than the actual threats to prof. Stock? If you believe something why would someone else not believing it make you feel unsafe? Profs Winston and Stock say "you can not change you sex" drama student says "yeah you can, coz something I read on the internet" why does this make drama student feel unsafe or drama student LGBTQ+ classmates. I can understand why Prof Stock feels unsafe, because she is being threatened with violence, with losing her job, with abuse but I can't see why simple disagreement is harmful. If you believe you are correct why does someone holding the opposite belief harm you? DH has a very good friend who is a CofE vicar, DH is an atheist, neither finds the others belief (or lack of) scary. The don't shy away from the subject, they discuss, they debate, they gently rib each other, often to the horror of other people but ultimately they respect that they each hold a different view.

From Wikipedia on Lord Winston:

After conducting research as Professor of Gynaecology at Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio in 1980, he returned to the UK to run the IVF service set up at Hammersmith Hospital which pioneered various improvements in this technology. He became Dean of the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecology in London until its merger with Imperial College in 1997. He was Director of NHS Research and Development at the Hammersmith Hospitals Trust until 1994.

As Professor of Fertility Studies at Hammersmith, Winston led the IVF team that pioneered pre-implantation genetic diagnosis to identify defects in human embryos, and published early work on gene expression in human embryos. He developed tubal microsurgery and various techniques in reproductive surgery, including sterilisation reversal. He performed the world's first Fallopian tubal transplant in 1979...together with Alan Handyside in 1990, his research group pioneered the techniques of pre-implantation diagnosis, enabling screening of human embryos to prevent numerous genetic diseases.

Isn't it such a pity all that work was wasted now Popeye the Sailor Tran has decided there's no such thing as biological sex? And drama-school girl says there's, like, science and stuff to prove, like, stuff?

@Seeingadistance

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

He is correct. It is NOT possible to change sex.

You can announce a change of gender and live as a pansexual unicorn if you wish though and wear a horn.

"Popeye The Sailor Tran..."

And when he goes swimming, does he kiss all the women?

@BatmansBat

Wait, someone is actually suggested to a professor in biology that science is different compared to high school 40 years ago 🤣

Indeed. How ridiculous that person is and yet doesn't even know it.

I have a beloved (most of the time), precious, long awaited, delightful, wonderful, IVF child. His existence tells me that Lord Winston has a better grasp of human biology than someone who thinks humans can change sex. At no point in our almost 10 year journey to parenthood did a single medical professional suggest we might have more success if became a man and DH became a woman. I wonder why that is? Could it be because however much he wants to a man can't be pregnant? E.g. they can't change sex.

I don't really understand the concept of being born in the wrong body either?

As a person you're both mind and body, your body is yours, it's not wrong, you may not feel like it's yours but it, along with your mind make up you as a human. How can it be the wrong body??

@Fariha31

Got it on good information the Labour woman is privatly GC!

What she privately believes is completely irrelevant.

She is a public servant - a role which comes with responsibilities which she has chosen to shirk for the sake of popularity.

There are petitions to remove Prof Winston and Prof Stock by basically dipstick idiots who emotionally think they you can change sex! Idiots.

Your sex genetics is in EVERY cell of your body. Why do the thick think you can change that by saying it and accusing anyone who states basic biology has to be sacked? Gender and picking and choosing that is a different matter but sex is sex.

I think I’ll believe the words of Lord Winston, an expert in his field who has helped thousands of people and who knows what he’s talking about over some tit on the internet.