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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Question Time right now!

999 replies

Seeingadistance · 14/10/2021 23:24

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

OP posts:
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Scraggythang · 15/10/2021 13:33

@lazylinguist I believe there was a bbc sketch show that took the piss out that idea with a bloke on stilts. Was very tongue in cheek. They put the clip on Instagram and there were a few livid TRA’s in the comment section Grin

mountbattenbergcake · 15/10/2021 13:34

[quote Georgist]@Runningupthecurtains
"Does anyone have any idea how/ why "I disagree with you" makes someone feel unsafe?"

I think the reasoning is that if there is more "acceptance" of them, there will be less discrimination/abuse/attacks. Isn't there at least some evidence of this?
I think it's a bit like how do racial slurs make people feel unsafe? Because some people who use them will also carry out physical attacks.[/quote]
The equivalence with racial slurs doesn’t seem correct?

Saying you can’t change your sex because it’s in your cells is not the same as a racial slur.

Gottalife · 15/10/2021 13:36

@Seeingadistance

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

True because as trans people believe they are already the sex they claim to be, they are not changing anything.
Fariha31 · 15/10/2021 13:36

Blimy, that Jordan Peterson video. I could not get to the end, that woman shouting was too much for me. Its was just her shouting and shouting, why is she shouting questions and then not bothering to listen to anything anyone else has to say?
Honestly I had to turn it off as it was making me an actual transphobe!

Mummyoflittledragon · 15/10/2021 13:38

I know it’s not the same as racial slurs. It’s being capitalised on. To the disgust and outrage of a lot of people from ethnic minorities.

hamstersarse · 15/10/2021 13:53

@Fariha31

Blimy, that Jordan Peterson video. I could not get to the end, that woman shouting was too much for me. Its was just her shouting and shouting, why is she shouting questions and then not bothering to listen to anything anyone else has to say? Honestly I had to turn it off as it was making me an actual transphobe!
It's a perfect representation of how impossible it is to debate with trans activists

Shout. Screech. Me. Me. Screech. Misconstrue. Screech. Me. Me. Feelz

Pinkfairylights · 15/10/2021 13:58

[quote Georgist]@Runningupthecurtains
"Does anyone have any idea how/ why "I disagree with you" makes someone feel unsafe?"

I think the reasoning is that if there is more "acceptance" of them, there will be less discrimination/abuse/attacks. Isn't there at least some evidence of this?
I think it's a bit like how do racial slurs make people feel unsafe? Because some people who use them will also carry out physical attacks.[/quote]
People aren't attacking trans people because others are talking about biological facts.

foxgoosefinch · 15/10/2021 13:58

@Manderleyagain

think there is a problem in that new technology means young people genuinely have less knowledge of recent history. They're living in a "now" bubble with infinite content.

When I was young, there were 4 TV channels, which often had content repeated from previous decades, and other curated content, which meant that you soaked up culture with historical context.

I was born in the 70s, and WWII seemed like a long way away, but I still had a general picture of what the last 50 years were like from TV (and books). I'm not sure current generations get that so much.

This is a really good point. I'd had similar thoughts about how they live in an a-historical 'now,' bubble and don't actually know that things they think are facts were only invented fairly recently. But I hadn't thought properly about how our childhpods gave us a better grounding in the last few decades. In the 80s I watched a lot of telly that was made in the 60s, and there as always black and white films on, even from the 30s.

Yes, agree absolutely with this - in fact it goes as far as all our built environment. When I was growing up my school had been built in the 1930s, we were taught in wartime prefabs, the doctor’s surgery was in a terraced house, the buses and shops were decades old, people’s houses were decorated in old fashioned ways. My grandparents had a tin in their under-stairs cupboard with their wartime ration books in. Not just in media, but all around you were the traces of the past.

Plus the few ways people got news and information were much more public. My parents near-religiously watched the six and nine o’clock news, and we had to be quiet while it was on. They had the radio on in the mornings to hear the news and today programme. So we were exposed to a lot of current events just by default.

Nowadays lots of kids often go to nurseries, schools etc. in buildings built entirely after 1997. One thing that did happen was a huge rebuilding of the built environment after 2000 during the long construction boom. It’s really great that they have better facilities than I did in my decrepit pre and postwar school buildings. But it means they aren’t any longer living in a world that is physically marked by the past decades of the twentieth century.

Same goes for people’s houses. Current decor trends are often bland and encourage constant redecorating. I can’t say I want to live in an old fashioned house either; but it’s true that you just don’t often see the traces of past styles and lives in people’s houses any more the way you used to. So younger generations are a lot more disconnected from the even recent past than they used to be.

My own students often are hilariously ill-informed about recent history. They regularly have never heard of the Cold War or major historical events after 1945. One of mine recently couldn’t understand why London buildings were all black in photos from the early twentieth century. He had never thought about the fact that coal fires were the main source of heat, or seen historical buildings that hadn’t been stoneblasted to remove all the 19th century soot.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/10/2021 13:58

Trans means your gender identity does not align with your sex assigned at birth, cis means it does. Trans men and cis women have in common that were both assigned female at birth, so that's why people include trans men when discussing cervices or periods.

Nobody is "assigned female at birth". Sex is observed at birth, not assigned, except in a teeny minority of cases. It's one of the few charateristics that can clearly be observed at birth and doesn't change as babies grow. Gender is all the associated social beliefs and expectations about girls and boys and men and women that we attach to that observation. And "gender identity" is not a single mental switch that can either "align" with your sex or not.

Though I am no longer convinced that "gender identity" is such a useful concept anyway. People identify in all sorts of complex ways (identify with, identify as...) but in the end either people can come to terms with the physical sex of their own body, or they can't. Not sure you need a teetering pyramid of identities and expressions to explain that.

And as for gender identity versus gender expression... that's not always a useful distinction either. I don't suppose Grayson Perry wears high heels and a frock on a building site because that's what women wear on building sites, do you?

Flowiththego · 15/10/2021 14:03

@justbackfrombangkok

I have always been ok with the fact that I was not clever enough to go to university. But I look at some of these students and wonder what they are studying and what the entry requirements were.
I don't think it's about being clever, but about being disciplined and having good teachers. I didn't go to uni but I now read a lot of theses in my job and some of them are awful - waffly, derivative, repetitious. I read somewhere that (from memory) over 90% of theses get accepted and people get their degree/PhD. There must be some poor-quality teaching out there. DH is a scientist and is highly educated, and I have skills he doesn't have. There's room for everyone, and a university education isn't (shouldn't be) the be-all and end-all.
Livelifeinthebuslane · 15/10/2021 14:04

A lot of people feel unsafe because they have some sort of trauma causing emotional and psychological issues, which are probably also the cause of their feeling of gender incongruence. They probably pretty much always feel unsafe because that's what happens when you've experienced trauma. But they can attribute the unsafeness to other people whereas really it's mainly a feeling within themselves - not minimising that there clearly is also abuse and violence that people do continue to experience, but it's not coming from a load of middle aged feminists.

MajesticWhine · 15/10/2021 14:10

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

And "gender identity" is not a single mental switch that can either "align" with your sex or not.

Sorry I don't know how to do that quote thing but thank for articulating that so well. Yes to that with knobs on.

rabbitwoman · 15/10/2021 14:14

Great that Dr Winston has very definitely stated this, it settle a few rows I am having.... ...

..... But TRAs know as well as anyone that no one can actually change sex. They are trying to change the meaning of the words to mean something other than biology and cement that in law. We need people to speak out about that!

lochmaree · 15/10/2021 14:16

thank you for posting OP. just been to watch this on catchup.

feeling unsafe because you disagree with someone is ridiculous. does that mean everyone who disagrees should keep quiet so that one person feels safe? surely everyone's views are slightly different so various opinions could make others feel unsafe so no one should say anything at all. in real life, there has been gender discussion at work and I have to that made me feel unsafe/wary, some colleagues have big "100% trans ally" on their email signatures and that makes me uneasy because I know they will likely not be happy with my gender critical views. I dont know how far some of them would take it. my organisation is one of the Stonewall diversity champions.

Georgist · 15/10/2021 14:19

@mountbattenbergcake

"The equivalence with racial slurs doesn’t seem correct?"

Is that relevant? I'm not suggesting they are equivalent. I'm saying they are concerned with the consequences of speech in both cases. It is fine to cause offense by disputing someone's claims or insulting them. But some people who do this also assault them. Therefore some people argue that the associated speech might be causing the assaults and shouldn't be allowed.

"Saying you can’t change your sex because it’s in your cells is not the same as a racial slur."

I think the rigid use of "sex" is slightly odd considering how the meaning of other words has been changed. For example, a mother use to be the woman who gave birth to a child. Now a mother is the woman who raises the child. For example, a woman who adopted a child will be called the mother, whilst the actual mother will be called the "birth mother!"
If a person who isn't really a mother is called a mother, can't a person who isn't really a woman be called a woman?

Runningupthecurtains · 15/10/2021 14:20

Saying you can’t change your sex because it’s in your cells is not the same as a racial slur.

I'm trying to understand how we have slipped back to medieval mindsets in which heretics are to be burned at the stake. Obviously slurs are threatening (at least potentially) but why is simple disagreement threatening? I don't just mean in terms of trans issues/ gender identity but how has this sense that to disagree with someone is to somehow attack them become prevalent? Why do people feel that they need to be protected from opposing views? Why was there a papable sense of shock from sections of the audience last night when an eminent professor of biology states a biological fact? What is threatening about that?

yourhairiswinterfire · 15/10/2021 14:21

True because as trans people believe they are already the sex they claim to be, they are not changing anything.

Believe being the crucial word there..

What are cross sex hormones for then? A bit pointless if simply believing something makes it so.

Runningupthecurtains · 15/10/2021 14:24

For example, a mother use to be the woman who gave birth to a child

I'm not sure that was ever really the case if widowed man remarried it was very common for the new wife to be called Mum/mother (the Dr.s son in Call the Midwife calls the ex nun Mum), my mother called her mother-in-law and father-in-law Mum and Dad.

MistandMud · 15/10/2021 14:26

'Mothering' is indeed used as a role in relation to a child, and not just a biological fact.

How is 'womaning' to be defined?

Jaysmith71 · 15/10/2021 14:35

There are prefixed mothers such as step-mothers and foster-mums, and more recently surrogate mums. There are also suffixed mothers-in-law and mother-figures.

But the root word mother on its own still means what it always meant.

Scraggythang · 15/10/2021 14:35

It was channel 4 not bcc.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=OfDk8vKUJxs

334bu · 15/10/2021 14:41

True because as trans people believe they are already the sex they claim to be, they are not changing anything.

So trans people actually believe that they have changed their biological sex. So when they say they don't conflate gender with sex, then they are lying?

Runningupthecurtains · 15/10/2021 14:42

@Jaysmith71

There are prefixed mothers such as step-mothers and foster-mums, and more recently surrogate mums. There are also suffixed mothers-in-law and mother-figures.

But the root word mother on its own still means what it always meant.

But not always as I said my Mum called my dad's mum "Mum". My grandmother called her step mother "Mum" and she talked about her mother. Adopted children don't usually prefix their parents with 'adoptive'. Mum and mother weren't always only applied to a biological female parent.
Warmduscher · 15/10/2021 14:42

[quote hamstersarse]This is still my favourite video of someone actually confronting a woke-y trans activist / snowflake

What made Jordan Peterson famous when he spoke out about enforced pronouns in Canada

[/quote] Good grief, that person scatter-gunning questions at Jordan Peterson without taking a breath gave me such a headache! I take my hat off to him, I simply couldn’t have a conversation with someone like that.
Marguerite2000 · 15/10/2021 14:43

'Mother' has more than one meaning, as do many words. In fact, so does the word 'sex'. It doesn't mean the words have changed though.