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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why single sex spaces

235 replies

DorsVenabili · 13/10/2021 23:11

the debate about single sex space re trans rights has made me question the basis for single sex spaces in general (and not just in this context) - more philosophically. There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed.
I think my question is what do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society. I don't think its to do with sexuality as a woman ( and as a girl)- i don't feel more comfortable with homosexual men than I would with lesbians

OP posts:
LobsterNapkin · 16/10/2021 23:51

@DorsVenabili

Apologies Nice gerbil - I was actually waiting to read responses plus i'm in a different time zone - next time i'll get up in the middle of the night to reply to your comments it was more lobsterNapkin's points re how much is cultural v how much is nature that i was interested in. I don't really think its the assault risk- there is something culturally seen as shameful in being naked in front of the other sex which starts really early on- with the shame attaching to the person who is seen naked not the one seeing them. I think for girls there is a sense of needing to cover up in front of everyone . This really wasn't about the Trans discussion - not everything is
Probably not that strong a metaphor, so take it with a pinch of salt, but you might be able to say the capacity for some kind of sexual element between men and women is hardware, and what what specifically triggers that is software and much more variable.

If you live in a place where no one wears clothing on top, then being bare on top isn't an especially sexual signal nor does it usually trigger a sexual response. In another society seeing someone's knee or angle might be risque and sexually exciting.

I agree that trying to reduce single sex spaces to the assault risk is not taking into account important elements. Lots of us don't want to change with people who are perfectly safe - our fathers, say. Because it would be embarrassing.

Sex has a lot of potential in any society to cause problems. Not just sexual violence but unwanted or unsupported pregnancies, sexual jealousy, adultery, spreading disease including to infants, children without parents, etc. So we structure sexuality in order to try and keep it all within bounds society can support. Part of that is around expectations about behaviour and privacy in sexualised contexts.

Animood · 17/10/2021 00:01

Women have never ever harassed me, grabbed my ass, cat called me, raped me, raped my friends, pressured me into sex acts.

Men have.

So I feel safer with women.

This is why we need single sex spaces.

NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 00:32

'Sex has a lot of potential in any society to cause problems. Not just sexual violence but unwanted or unsupported pregnancies, sexual jealousy, adultery, spreading disease including to infants, children without parents, etc. So we structure sexuality in order to try and keep it all within bounds society can support. Part of that is around expectations about behaviour and privacy in sexualised contexts.'

I think I'm not getting this.

Single sex spaces where they (used to exist) are not 'sexualised contexts' for anyone except creepy weirdos, invariably male.

Women and girls are not nearly as likely at all. If heterosexual. To see men's toilets etc as 'sexualised contexts'.

Interestingly some men DO see these spaces for men as (potentially) sexualised contexts- some facilities are fairly well known for that purpose.

While women gay straight bi just. Don't. I mean never say never but women just don't tend to pull other women and fuck in the cubicles etc.

And I mean. A bunch of 6yo girls changing for swimming can surely never be seen as a sexualised context. Yet there are men who would be keen to be in there with them.

It would also be good to understand what you mean by society structuring sexuality. I can think of some things but they don't quite fit.

Namenic · 17/10/2021 01:52

Lobsternapkin - 2 relatives (both male) find it difficult to go to toilet when anyone else is in the room (eg brushing teeth). I could see this being evolutionary - in that opening bowels/passing urine are times when we aren’t fully alert to attackers. perhaps having attention on us, fires our stress response?

Some women might find that male attention brings on a similar stress response due to the assault risk or psychological things like embarassment/shame. Attention from women may elicit less stress - because of lower assault risk OR the fact that the women have the same body parts/periods etc - so less embarassment (knowledge that the other person also experiences the same things).

This is just speculation - I don’t have evidence for this, but I could see it as plausible.

LobsterNapkin · 17/10/2021 03:10

@NiceGerbil

'Sex has a lot of potential in any society to cause problems. Not just sexual violence but unwanted or unsupported pregnancies, sexual jealousy, adultery, spreading disease including to infants, children without parents, etc. So we structure sexuality in order to try and keep it all within bounds society can support. Part of that is around expectations about behaviour and privacy in sexualised contexts.'

I think I'm not getting this.

Single sex spaces where they (used to exist) are not 'sexualised contexts' for anyone except creepy weirdos, invariably male.

Women and girls are not nearly as likely at all. If heterosexual. To see men's toilets etc as 'sexualised contexts'.

Interestingly some men DO see these spaces for men as (potentially) sexualised contexts- some facilities are fairly well known for that purpose.

While women gay straight bi just. Don't. I mean never say never but women just don't tend to pull other women and fuck in the cubicles etc.

And I mean. A bunch of 6yo girls changing for swimming can surely never be seen as a sexualised context. Yet there are men who would be keen to be in there with them.

It would also be good to understand what you mean by society structuring sexuality. I can think of some things but they don't quite fit.

I really don't know where to begin, you don't actually seem to be reading the post I wrote.
LobsterNapkin · 17/10/2021 03:17

@Namenic

Lobsternapkin - 2 relatives (both male) find it difficult to go to toilet when anyone else is in the room (eg brushing teeth). I could see this being evolutionary - in that opening bowels/passing urine are times when we aren’t fully alert to attackers. perhaps having attention on us, fires our stress response?

Some women might find that male attention brings on a similar stress response due to the assault risk or psychological things like embarassment/shame. Attention from women may elicit less stress - because of lower assault risk OR the fact that the women have the same body parts/periods etc - so less embarassment (knowledge that the other person also experiences the same things).

This is just speculation - I don’t have evidence for this, but I could see it as plausible.

Yes, I do think that's true. I've noticed with all the kids I've been involved in toilet training that they were difficult to get to poop in the toilet because they wanted to go to a private place for it, rather than come tell you and sit with you in a little room. And other animals like dogs can be similar.

I'm sure that any perceived danger will create a stress response that inhibits bodily functions.

It's also partly about social norms though. Lots of people in our culture have trouble toileting with other people around, much less doing something like shitting in a room with another person there. When I was in university I used to go to the toilet in the night because I found it impossible with some girl in the next stall to me, or even potentially coming in next to me. But some other cultures have also had communal toilets. So the stress in that case is caused not necessarily by danger as such so much as stress brought on by social norms being violated. Which I think maybe the body perceives as danger even when the mind knows it isn't.

NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 03:50

IME toddlers are more than happy to squat and have a crap (poop?!) in their nappy anywhere!

Many don't like toilets because they're too high and big. You can buy those seats that go over to minimise the fear/ danger of them falling in!

Happy to use potty wherever though!

NiceGerbil · 17/10/2021 03:52

'Sex has a lot of potential in any society to cause problems. Not just sexual violence but unwanted or unsupported pregnancies, sexual jealousy, adultery, spreading disease including to infants, children without parents, etc. So we structure sexuality in order to try and keep it all within bounds society can support. Part of that is around expectations about behaviour and privacy in sexualised contexts.'

I did read it more than once! Can you explain this bit as I clearly have not understood what you're getting at.

beastlyslumber · 17/10/2021 05:16

Re. single sex spaces, why has MN taken down the aibu thread about a man in the women's toilet? They said "it's not helping anyone" WTF does that mean? How can they know that?

I personally don't want men to be allowed into women's toilets but am happy to discuss with others, debate and disagree, and be disagreed with. I don't care if people call me names or whatever, just want to have the discussion. Why the fuck are we not allowed to talk about it on here?

TheWeeDonkey · 17/10/2021 05:56

"Its not helping anyone"

It was pointing women out to the realities that when inevitably all public toilets become mixed sex that men view doors as optional and if we have an issue with that we need to stop using the toilets.

Namenic · 17/10/2021 07:45

LobsterNapkin - yes it is likely to be perceived danger. But there is also a real reason for that perception.

Certain groups - women, smaller men, children, injured people may rationally feel more ‘danger’ in situations. Almost all of these groups will feel more threatened by men than women. Whilst single sex spaces does not fix all threat of violence, it can reduce it for women and girls. 3rd space toilets with floor to ceiling walls and washbasins can also help other groups.

Personally I feel more comfortable becoming naked in front of certain people (eg v close relatives, medical professionals) regardless of their sex than other people. For non medical people I do not know, I am more comfortable with being naked in front of women than men. I think it’s pretty rational as they are less likely to assault me and if they did, I am more likely to be able to to successfully defend myself.

GAHgamel · 17/10/2021 07:52

Setting the safety aspects to one side for a minute, one of the reasons I have for wanting single sex spaces is the fact that I have spent most of my life being told all the ways I must modify my behaviour so as not to attract the wrong type of male attention. In single sex spaces I don't have that additional subconscious mental load.

ChattyLion · 17/10/2021 08:00

I didn’t see that thread but doesn’t sound good that a whole thread about men in women’s toilets was deleted. Why not just delete individual posts if they break MN Talk guidelines? Otherwise, @MNHQ it will look very bad. Was the discussion was helping women too much? Were women too angry? Were women basically unanimous that they don’t want men around when we’re vulnerable? Why’s that a problem? Why can’t we talk about this stuff on here?

Men in women’s toilets is a real and an evidenced threat to women. I couldn’t care less how that man identifies his ‘gender’ or he doesn’t, I don’t care what he’s wearing or he isn’t in there, this is simply not about ‘transphobia’. You do you. Keep your Penis out of the Ladies’.

Similarly any woman who identifies as a man or non binary or anything else is welcome in the women’s toilets whatever surgery they’ve had or clothes or whatever they’ve got on or had done. Because sex can’t be changed. Women’s risks from male behaviour and male bodies are still there whatever the female person’s age, presentation etc.

I agree that there’s way more to single sex spaces than single sex toilets (like for example schools and colleges in universities for women) but toilets seem to be a particularly urgent focus for male entryism.
Pretty obvious to most women why that is, isn’t it.

It’s an expression of a sexist culture that men now want to remove all of women’s hard-won cultural and physical boundaries that we have from men. And that other people will so readily get behind that agenda. Because it means they hate female solidarity and they love female vulnerability. We can’t escape our bodies any more than they can, everyone knows that nobody actually can. And so female body related stuff where we’re vulnerable is a soft target for a male power grab if they think we’re doing a bit too well professionally or otherwise in society for their liking.

Notice few men are actively campaigning to encourage mixed sex behaviour from women or ‘sex blind’ behavior from women in the other often gendered areas of life, that tend to advantage men- like typical pay in the workplace. They’re not all out in lanyards and with corporate sponsorship campaigning for more time to be spent on male involvement in parenting their own children. They’re not out campaigning to dismantle gender stereotypes are they?

Biological sex and enforcing gender norms on our female bodies seems very important to genderists to campaign on where men’s sexual rights to access women and children might be limited. That is, they seem to focus their efforts on areas where behavioural norms and legal safeguards for women that are specifically aimed at men are needed.

The genderist political agenda at heart is about advancing men’s sexual rights and I think a lot of women recognise that, even if not always consciously seeing it at first. And that urge for more male power is why we get so much shit from men for trying to resist it. Or even if we just try to name it for what it is. Makes them look bad if anyone brings in sunlight to this whole area so they want women silenced.

Kosmin · 17/10/2021 17:41

@ChattyLion
Similarly any woman who identifies as a man or non binary or anything else is welcome in the women’s toilets whatever surgery they’ve had or clothes or whatever they’ve got on or had done. Because sex can’t be changed. Women’s risks from male behaviour and male bodies are still there whatever the female person’s age, presentation etc.

Isn't there a risk posed by women who are taking male hormones (as these increase strength and aggression) in female only spaces?

Also, if women identifying as men still use the female only spaces, that is obviously fine for those cases. But as some of these women may look like men, won't this raise the possibility that some men will use these facilities, claiming that they are women (trans men)?

Wouldn't it be safer to exclude trans from female only spaces entirely?

334bu · 17/10/2021 18:01

Wouldn't it be safer to exclude trans from female only spaces entirely?
Are you saying that someone like Elliot Page would be safe in a male only area?

Kosmin · 17/10/2021 18:36

@334bu

*Wouldn't it be safer to exclude trans from female only spaces entirely?* Are you saying that someone like Elliot Page would be safe in a male only area?
If people who wouldn't be safe in the male only area can access female only areas, by self ID, this would be open to abuse by men who could pass as women or trans men.
GoldenBlue · 17/10/2021 18:38

[quote Kosmin]@ChattyLion
Similarly any woman who identifies as a man or non binary or anything else is welcome in the women’s toilets whatever surgery they’ve had or clothes or whatever they’ve got on or had done. Because sex can’t be changed. Women’s risks from male behaviour and male bodies are still there whatever the female person’s age, presentation etc.

Isn't there a risk posed by women who are taking male hormones (as these increase strength and aggression) in female only spaces?

Also, if women identifying as men still use the female only spaces, that is obviously fine for those cases. But as some of these women may look like men, won't this raise the possibility that some men will use these facilities, claiming that they are women (trans men)?

Wouldn't it be safer to exclude trans from female only spaces entirely?[/quote]
They are still women and should have the opportunity to use women's only spaces. I don't feel afraid of trans men. Despite them having increased strength and potentially aggression due to testosterone I'm still less afraid of them than men and trans women

Kosmin · 17/10/2021 18:49

@GoldenBlue
They are still women and should have the opportunity to use women's only spaces. I don't feel afraid of trans men. Despite them having increased strength and potentially aggression due to testosterone I'm still less afraid of them than men and trans women

I wasn't disputing they are women. Some may be afraid of trans men. But doesn't it also lead to greater risk of men entering female only spaces?

ArabellaScott · 17/10/2021 18:52

if a woman tried to attack me I'd stand a good chance of fighting her off as we would most likely be a similar size.

And also she won't have a penis so the risk of rape/pregnancy won't be there.

ArabellaScott · 17/10/2021 18:54

Oh, also quite happy to have transmen in women's spaces, yep. A beard isn't what is risky about males; it's the muscle strength, size, weight, height and penis.

RainbowCrossing · 17/10/2021 19:18

@ArabellaScott

Oh, also quite happy to have transmen in women's spaces, yep. A beard isn't what is risky about males; it's the muscle strength, size, weight, height and penis.
That's always been a no from me. I don't mean non-passing transmen, but once you have a taken hormones and have a beard, deep voice etc the testosterone makes you make women uncomfortable in women's spaces. So no. When you make choices sometimes some doors get closed to you I'm afraid.

But I am sure that transmen know this and I don't see any great clamouring from passing trans men to use the women's. Although I do see 'allies' using them as a gotcha all the fucking live long day Hmm

ArabellaScott · 17/10/2021 19:20

True, Rainbow. I also haven't ever heard from any transmen who wish to use women's spaces, so perhaps this is just not an issue.

Kosmin · 17/10/2021 19:24

@ArabellaScott

Oh, also quite happy to have transmen in women's spaces, yep. A beard isn't what is risky about males; it's the muscle strength, size, weight, height and penis.
I think either way it's open abuse by some men (not trans) who claim to be trans.
JellySaurus · 17/10/2021 19:36

When you make choices sometimes some doors get closed to you I'm afraid.

Blimey! You're not expecting adult behaviour are you?

RainbowCrossing · 17/10/2021 19:39

I also think Elliot Page is a really really bad example as a gotcha. Because I can't see anyone looking at Elliot (who is, what 5'2"/5'3"? 7 stone sopping wet?) and questioning why that person is in the women's toilets.

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