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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Why single sex spaces

235 replies

DorsVenabili · 13/10/2021 23:11

the debate about single sex space re trans rights has made me question the basis for single sex spaces in general (and not just in this context) - more philosophically. There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed.
I think my question is what do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society. I don't think its to do with sexuality as a woman ( and as a girl)- i don't feel more comfortable with homosexual men than I would with lesbians

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 14/10/2021 07:21

Why do women go to the toilet in groups? It's a joke, right? If you think it's a gentle tease about how we cannot stop chatting even long enough to go to the loo then think again:

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/09/319529037/indias-rape-uproar-ignites-demand-to-end-open-defecation?t=1634191971887

"There has been a huge change in our lives. Before, the men would follow us, wait for us to sit in the field and watch. Now, thanks to Mr. Pathak, we have a lavatory at home." Laxmi says, "We don't need to step out, and we feel better. Our dignity which is an ornament for us — is now safe."

Hattie765 · 14/10/2021 07:23

I don't believe OP is actually a woman or you'd know the answer to this question

NecessaryScene · 14/10/2021 07:25

I'm always bemused by these tales of Scandinavian unisex utopias.

Largely because they're untrue, afaict. (Speaking from Finnish experience.) Nudity, particularly in saunas, is certainly far more common.

But mixed-sex in that situation is rare. It can happen in close families + friends, yes. Basically wouldn't happen in public, or at workplaces. Those would be single-sex.

To suggest that mixed-sex nudity is the norm is false. It might be more common absolutely, yes - due to the increased nudity generally - but still not the norm.

And to suggest that even that more-mixed-nudity situation would be remotely the same as there being NO single-sex facilities is a total nonsequitur. The total elimination of single-sex options is the problem here. Not the existence of mixed-sex options.

The extra nudity at events actually means a bit more thought needs to be applied to sex separation - eg a work event might need to allow for separate female + male sauna time. Men stock up with beer from the beer fridge in the sauna changing room before the women's turn.... (Yes, offices can have a sauna, but I can't imagine a mixed-sex work sauna).

Lovelyricepudding · 14/10/2021 07:33

@EdgeOfACoin

Last time I was in Iceland, there were separate naked showers for men and women.

Maybe friends and family are happy to get naked in saunas and lagoons together but there were definitely sex-segregated spaces where I visited. Also separate male and female toilets in Sweden. I'm always bemused by these tales of Scandinavian unisex utopias.

Same when I was in Finland - very definitely NOT mixed sex in saunas.
Random789 · 14/10/2021 07:37

It seems so odd to think of single-sex spaces in terms of whether or not you feel 'comfortable' getting naked in front of someone of the opposite sex. I don't feel uncomfortable with that at all, but single-sex spaces exist for an entirely different reason. They exist because male people are massively more likely than women to sexually attack, harrass, assault , and because their targets are usually women, and because the offending profile of male bodies has f-all to do with their gender identity.

The misperception of the concerns as being about 'comfort' rather than safety feels like it comes from a position of privilege, as if the issue only concerned safe, well-designed and monitored spaces , rather than, for example, lonely public toilets in unlit, underpoliced streets, or women's prisons, where women are so profoundly disrespected that they can be left to give birth alone and watch their baby die.

NecessaryScene · 14/10/2021 07:41

Same when I was in Finland - very definitely NOT mixed sex in saunas.

And I've never seen a mixed-sex toilet. I hear a lot about them appearing in England, but I can't imagine Finns going for this. Unisex single-occupancy room, at most.

Although they do seem to have a bad habit of importing bad ideas from the UK and America... I understand they're currently copying some stuff in the education system(!). Which doesn't seem logical seeing as Finland is topping the charts...

That actually is a universal pattern - someone in country X trying to justify their policy without evidence, but with a (possibly false or misleading) claim that some other country is doing it, and an evidence-free claim that it works great there.

This goes back decades or centuries - con-men or advertisers touting something as being all the rage in Paris or whatever...

Nordic countries being touted as a mixed-sex nude hippy commune is like that. There's a grain of truth, but only a grain.

Beowulfa · 14/10/2021 07:47

I suspect most normal (ie non-criminal) men are more comfortable in single sex spaces too. They know the accepted codes of behaviour.

Diaryofamadwoman · 14/10/2021 07:49

Could you imagine the amount of consensual sexual activity that would take place if mixed sex facilities were the norm?

Gosports · 14/10/2021 07:51

I am fiercely GC, and pro single sex spaces, but when travelling in Asia (can’t remember where - maybe Malaysia) we came across trains where there were carriages just for women. On the same trip, a Muslim man made his wife switch places so she didn’t have to sit next to my husband.

I find it difficult reconciling my reactions to these things - on the one hand, I believe 100% that women should have our own toilets/prisons etc, but I don’t feel we should have to have our own train carriages. I appreciate no one is getting naked in a train carriage, but it just seems unnecessary. Just as a woman shouldn’t feel threatened by sitting next to an unknown male on a plane.

JellySaurus · 14/10/2021 08:05

You're confusing another patriarchal religious control with women's safety.

I say ' another' because trans ideology is another patriarchal neo-religion which aims to control women men.

Random789 · 14/10/2021 08:21

In the 80s (and perhaps still now) Mexico City had women-only train carriages that women could choose to use. I didn't really understand it until I felt some guy's erection rammed against me in a mixed carriage.

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 14/10/2021 08:27

@Gosports

I am fiercely GC, and pro single sex spaces, but when travelling in Asia (can’t remember where - maybe Malaysia) we came across trains where there were carriages just for women. On the same trip, a Muslim man made his wife switch places so she didn’t have to sit next to my husband.

I find it difficult reconciling my reactions to these things - on the one hand, I believe 100% that women should have our own toilets/prisons etc, but I don’t feel we should have to have our own train carriages. I appreciate no one is getting naked in a train carriage, but it just seems unnecessary. Just as a woman shouldn’t feel threatened by sitting next to an unknown male on a plane.

There’s a very simple distinction here though. The male husband was controlling his wife. It was nothing to do with her safety or her choices. It was the husband’s feelings of ownership.
Gosports · 14/10/2021 08:28

Yes, I can see how that could make you want to use a female carriage! I suppose what I’m trying to work out is that I feel women should be safe in a mixed carriage and not feel we need a single sex space. I also feel we should be safe in toilets and yet I DO feel
we need that space to be single sex. And as you point out - men can have erections in both.

NecessaryScene · 14/10/2021 08:39

I suppose what I’m trying to work out is that I feel women should be safe in a mixed carriage and not feel we need a single sex space. I also feel we should be safe in toilets and yet I DO feel
we need that space to be single sex.

There are trade-offs in privacy here.

In an extremely public space, with lots of people, a woman is probably safe.

If a woman wants some privacy, then that privacy comes at a safety cost - fewer eyes on potential wrongdoers.

So more private spaces, or spaces that are likely to be less populated, where a woman might find herself alone with a man, need more care.

Exactly where a given society feels the need to draw the line on what is single sex and what isn't is a reflection on the overall safety of that society. Women-only train carriages suggest something of a problem with public behaviour - what people feel they can get away with.

midgedude · 14/10/2021 08:42

I feel the whole need for single sex spaces is rooted in mysogeny,

If women didn't suffer sexual abuse and violence , if men didn't ogle and banter , if a body was just a body and nothing to get excited about then the need would be much reduced

JSL52 · 14/10/2021 08:47

[quote Cascascascas]@334bu

Wow you have a lot of bias.
Seek help
I can feel the anger In
Your statement

I hope you haven’t been hurt but I suggest consider counselling.[/quote]
No this is exactly why we need single sex spaces. She's spot on.

Signalbox · 14/10/2021 08:48

In the 80s (and perhaps still now) Mexico City had women-only train carriages that women could choose to use. I didn't really understand it until I felt some guy's erection rammed against me in a mixed carriage.

Yes it only takes one sexual assault before you wish you had the option of a single sex service. I stopped using a specific GWR service because there was so much bad male behaviour going on. Although a single sex carriage wouldn’t have helped on that service because it would have been empty (so not safe at all) as there were very few single women on the train. What would have helped is more guards and working cctv for when things go wrong.

Dinosauria · 14/10/2021 08:49

@Hathertonhariden

Victims of male violence and women of faith both need space away from men when in a state of undress. Failure to provide single sex spaces prevents these women from living a full life.
And people who are not victims if male violence and wish to stay that way.
Dinosauria · 14/10/2021 08:58

@Gosports

I am fiercely GC, and pro single sex spaces, but when travelling in Asia (can’t remember where - maybe Malaysia) we came across trains where there were carriages just for women. On the same trip, a Muslim man made his wife switch places so she didn’t have to sit next to my husband.

I find it difficult reconciling my reactions to these things - on the one hand, I believe 100% that women should have our own toilets/prisons etc, but I don’t feel we should have to have our own train carriages. I appreciate no one is getting naked in a train carriage, but it just seems unnecessary. Just as a woman shouldn’t feel threatened by sitting next to an unknown male on a plane.

I would use trains in the UK if there was women only carriages, sex attacks on the railways in the UK is depressingly common. The religious reason for moving I'd not comparable
flashbac · 14/10/2021 09:05

Simple answer? The MALE GAZE. I want respite from it. I don't want to suffer it in the changing room, in the breastfeeding support group, in the swimming pool.

GoldenBlue · 14/10/2021 09:13

When in a vulnerable situation such as a state of undress, asleep, or inability to escape then I want women to have sex separated spaces to keep them safe.

Whilst it's not all men, it is generally males that are a greater risk to women, particularly for sexual abuse and associated violence

Prisons, mental health facilities, hospital wards, dormitories, showers should all be sex segregated to protect women.

I'm sorry that for some trans women may be also at risk from male sexual violence and I understand why they would want to take advantage of women's safe spaces. However we should be campaigning to provide them their own safe spaces rather than open the door for people with male anatomy being let into women's safe spaces.

It is not about sexuality, I've no issue with sharing with lesbians and bisexuals. I'm not afraid that someone might fancy me or enjoy seeing me naked. I'm afraid that males may harm me.

jellyfrizz · 14/10/2021 09:14

@midgedude

I feel the whole need for single sex spaces is rooted in mysogeny,

If women didn't suffer sexual abuse and violence , if men didn't ogle and banter , if a body was just a body and nothing to get excited about then the need would be much reduced

Yes!

Although there are also some spaces where physical needs come into play e.g. females having to sit down to wee, need facilities to deal with periods..

Shedbuilder · 14/10/2021 09:22

Flashback, you beat me to the male gaze. The assessing look and then the furtive peering and accidental towel drop giving an excuse to flash you in a 'I'm awfully sorry, I just dropped my towel, I didn't intentionally expose myself' way.

Most decent men, asked if they'd like to share a changing room with women would say no, for fear of an accidental towel drop or for fear that they might offend a woman by being seen to look at her when she's naked.

We can't tell the decent men from the porn addicts/ men who like hidden camera scenarios/ rapists/ idiots by sight, so we keep them all out for the safety, security and well-being of all women. It would be reckless and dangerous to do otherwise.